Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Computers are an inherently oppressive technology (2022)

devever.net

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 45 posts

Re: Computers are an inherently oppressive technology (2022)

#21

Post by ddj231 »

vouaobrasil wrote: post #13
lordkrandel wrote: post #7

This article speaks of ruthlessness of the machine for 99% of the time, and then with absolutely no logical reasoning, says at the end that ruthlessnes is inherently oppressive. Because it has the power to be it. In reality, it's the opposite: it's human flawed moral compass that makes a machine a weapon. Until we understand and address this, we will find no peace.

We will never understand and address this as a group as long as the underlying environment is the uncontrolled capitalistic one in which the ideas and technologies that are selected for (evolutionarily) are the ones that net the greatest profit in the shortest-term without regard to long-term consequences. As long as we have this and the ability to abuse the commons, we will never deviate from our abusive and violent…

And replace it with what? The scary part of suggestions of “tear it all down” is how do we know that the replacement will be any better? In the grand scheme of things the West is in a state of abundance and luxury. Much more so than the communist experiments ever achieved. Additionally global poverty has been trending down for decades. While global literacy has greatly increased.

The key strength of a free-market seems to be that it assumes people will act in their own self interest and it creates a space where we can a get a roughly ‘win-win’ situation. That while you act in your self interest both you and the community are rewarded. So starting a bakery would give you a financial reward and others baked goods at a competitive price. Assuming that changing the system will force people to stop acting in their self interest seems to be how alternatives go wrong.

Re: Computers are an inherently oppressive technology (2022)

#22

Post by vouaobrasil »

ddj231 wrote: post #21
vouaobrasil wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We will never understand and address this as a group as long as the underlying environment is the uncontrolled capitalistic one in which the ideas and technologies that are selected for (evolutionarily) are the ones that net the greatest profit in the shortest-term without regard to long-term consequences. As long as we have this and the ability to abuse the commons, we will never deviate from our abusive and violent…

And replace it with what? The scary part of suggestions of “tear it all down” is how do we know that the replacement will be any better? In the grand scheme of things the West is in a state of abundance and luxury. Much more so than the communist experiments ever achieved. Additionally global poverty has been trending down for decades. While global literacy has greatly increased. The key strength of a free-market see…

I think anything that ends ecological destruction and rising CO2 levels will be better than what we have now. We will just have to be brave and work within such a new system instead of being scared children surrounded by our technology.

We have solved nuclear fission power, created vaccines for COVID, and went to the moon. Surely we can go back to a world of greater sustainability than now.

Plenty of older societies had more strict regulations to soften the devastating effects of the free market. At the very least we should reinstitute customs that prevent unfettered economic growth and more sustainable population levels.

Re: Computers are an inherently oppressive technology (2022)

#23

Post by AnimalMuppet »

ddj231 wrote: post #21
vouaobrasil wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We will never understand and address this as a group as long as the underlying environment is the uncontrolled capitalistic one in which the ideas and technologies that are selected for (evolutionarily) are the ones that net the greatest profit in the shortest-term without regard to long-term consequences. As long as we have this and the ability to abuse the commons, we will never deviate from our abusive and violent…

And replace it with what? The scary part of suggestions of “tear it all down” is how do we know that the replacement will be any better? In the grand scheme of things the West is in a state of abundance and luxury. Much more so than the communist experiments ever achieved. Additionally global poverty has been trending down for decades. While global literacy has greatly increased. The key strength of a free-market see…

This.

"Things are bad. They shouldn't be like this." OK, could be. "We should destroy it all." Yeah, will that make things better, or worse. To not have the current set of problems doesn't mean you have no problems. You can have far worse problems. So before we agree to tear it all down, you have to convince us that 1) your replacement will actually be better, and 2) you have a realistic plan to actually bring that about. Otherwise, you're just one more vandal, destroying but not building.

Re: Computers are an inherently oppressive technology (2022)

#24

Post by AnimalMuppet »

vouaobrasil wrote: post #22
ddj231 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And replace it with what? The scary part of suggestions of “tear it all down” is how do we know that the replacement will be any better? In the grand scheme of things the West is in a state of abundance and luxury. Much more so than the communist experiments ever achieved. Additionally global poverty has been trending down for decades. While global literacy has greatly increased. The key strength of a free-market see…

I think anything that ends ecological destruction and rising CO2 levels will be better than what we have now. We will just have to be brave and work within such a new system instead of being scared children surrounded by our technology. We have solved nuclear fission power, created vaccines for COVID, and went to the moon. Surely we can go back to a world of greater sustainability than now. Plenty of older societies…

If you "bring down the current system", do you think what results is going to be less destructive to the environment? Or will 8 billion people all do whatever they have to in order to survive, regardless of the damage it causes?

You have to have a realistic replacement for the current system, and a realistic plan to get there. Without that, bringing down the current system won't lead to something better, but to something worse.

Re: Computers are an inherently oppressive technology (2022)

#25

Post by AnimalMuppet »

vouaobrasil wrote: post #14
ssss11 wrote: post #9

It’s just a tool. Like any other, it works for its master. A hammer can be used for good or bad. A knife, a brick, a gun and so on. The problem is humans. We need people who refuse to govern using oppression. Corporate leaders who refuse to prioritise profit over human rights. And developers who have a moral compass of what should and should not be built. But why would this technology be any different to prior new te…

There is no such thing as a 'just a tool', because we have fundamnetal and basal instincts that cannot be stopped when we operate in a large group. Tools always interact with these basal instincts in predictable ways that cannot be stopped within our modern technological society that has an incredible amount of inertia. To say that anyhting is 'just a tool' is exceptionally naive and only works in small group setting…

> There is no such thing as a 'just a tool', because we have fundamnetal and basal instincts that cannot be stopped when we operate in a large group.

Empirically that seems to be true.

> Yes, a hammer can be used for good or bad, but it will always inevitably be used for bad in an environment that encourages such uses.

From your previous line that I quoted, that would be any environment that has humans in large groups. Now what do you propose? Short of returning to hunter-gatherers (with the death of about 7.9 billion people), I don't see how you're going to prevent that kind of environment.

Re: Computers are an inherently oppressive technology (2022)

#26

Post by galdosdi »

haltist wrote: post #2

A few weeks ago I was taking the train but before boarding I noticed two police officers doing their daily patrol and started chatting with them about a crazy lady at the top of the station's stairs. They said they couldn't do anything because it was not their job to take care of the insane to which I couldn't really say anything other than "I guess that sounds about right". The train I was going to take started to d…

Indeed. And that is why we naturally fear new technology, if we have enough sad experience of human nature or reading of history-- because we fear it will give more power to those who will use it against us, a fear that is very justified by the evidence of what has happened in the wake of new technologies spreading over the last 10,000 years.

Re: Computers are an inherently oppressive technology (2022)

#27

Post by lo_zamoyski »

marssaxman wrote: post #6
xyzzy123 wrote: post #5

I don't feel this kind of "ruthlessness" is particularly inherent to computers. It seems to me an inherent property of the non-human universe, i.e "everything but us" - gravity is extremely unforgiving if you happen to step off the wrong thing, a sharp rock can slice you open with a moment's inattention. If you find yourself in the wrong environment you will die of thirst or hunger or asphyxiate. Nature is not "kind"…

Nature is not kind, but neither is it vindictive; the wild world outside humanity will generally treat you with mere indifference. Conversely, there is nothing on earth capable of inflicting more sustained, intentional harm than a group of humans with hearts full of righteous certainty.

I would make a stronger and more explicit claim. Even speaking of "nature" as "indifferent" is wrong, because it is a category mistake. Indifference presupposes a capacity to care, so a claim like "the rock is indifferent" isn't just false, but nonsensical. A rock falling off a cliff onto a person below is just a rock that has completely accidentally landed on a person below.

Why do I emphasize this so strongly? Because popular science, as it is wont to do, often sacrifices correctness and intellectual substance with tawdry emotional appeal and sensationalism. To say "the universe is indifferent to us" has an emotional force than the banal reality of the situation does not. And this leads to intellectual confusion and a distorted view of reality, because a category, through emotional conditioning, has been falsely attached to reality.

Re: Computers are an inherently oppressive technology (2022)

#28

Post by lo_zamoyski »

vouaobrasil wrote: post #22
ddj231 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And replace it with what? The scary part of suggestions of “tear it all down” is how do we know that the replacement will be any better? In the grand scheme of things the West is in a state of abundance and luxury. Much more so than the communist experiments ever achieved. Additionally global poverty has been trending down for decades. While global literacy has greatly increased. The key strength of a free-market see…

I think anything that ends ecological destruction and rising CO2 levels will be better than what we have now. We will just have to be brave and work within such a new system instead of being scared children surrounded by our technology. We have solved nuclear fission power, created vaccines for COVID, and went to the moon. Surely we can go back to a world of greater sustainability than now. Plenty of older societies…

So you don't actually want to "tear it all down", yes? That would indeed be very stupid. Revolutionaries almost always make things worse, and often has wicked motives. Reformers can make things better.

Unfettered capitalism is certainly worth criticism. A just economic arrangement is one that rests on a sound philosophical anthropology. Of course, a good portion of those raging against "the system" are driven less by moral concerns and more by envy masquerading as moral concern.

Re: Computers are an inherently oppressive technology (2022)

#29

Post by paulolc »

mkii wrote: post #16
haltist wrote: post #2

A few weeks ago I was taking the train but before boarding I noticed two police officers doing their daily patrol and started chatting with them about a crazy lady at the top of the station's stairs. They said they couldn't do anything because it was not their job to take care of the insane to which I couldn't really say anything other than "I guess that sounds about right". The train I was going to take started to d…

Charlie Booker, of Black Mirror fame, said (paraphrasing): it's not technology that sucks -- it's people.

No it's not. People are great. The problem is that we are not OK. When can't help ourselves, much less others. A lot of us are sick and don't have help. We are silently succumbing to the suffering of an increasingly dehumanizing environment. Machines should be beside us, to help. Not between us and stop us from fully interact with each other.

Re: Computers are an inherently oppressive technology (2022)

#30

Post by badpun »

vouaobrasil wrote: post #22
ddj231 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And replace it with what? The scary part of suggestions of “tear it all down” is how do we know that the replacement will be any better? In the grand scheme of things the West is in a state of abundance and luxury. Much more so than the communist experiments ever achieved. Additionally global poverty has been trending down for decades. While global literacy has greatly increased. The key strength of a free-market see…

I think anything that ends ecological destruction and rising CO2 levels will be better than what we have now. We will just have to be brave and work within such a new system instead of being scared children surrounded by our technology. We have solved nuclear fission power, created vaccines for COVID, and went to the moon. Surely we can go back to a world of greater sustainability than now. Plenty of older societies…

> We have solved nuclear fission power, created vaccines for COVID, and went to the moon. Surely we can go back to a world of greater sustainability than now.

I'm not sure about that at all. These three things you listed are just science/technical problems, while the latter is a governance problem. Governance is much harder than science and technology.

Post reply on HN