Police have undermined the promise of body cameras • Hacker News Board

Re: Police have undermined the promise of body cameras

#21

Post by bell-cot » Thu, Dec 14, 2023, 3:13 PM UTC

JadeNB wrote: post #4

bell-cot wrote: post #2

Immediate Reaction: Um, yes? Only the naive, self-deluding, and techno-utopians would have expected otherwise. Vs. an experienced teller from a well-run 1950's podunk bank could tell you that no security technology is worth crap if the managers don't actually care, or are crooked themselves.

> Immediate Reaction: Um, yes? Only the naive, self-deluding, and techno-utopians would have expected otherwise. Vs. an experienced teller from a well-run 1950's podunk bank could tell you that no security technology is worth crap if the managers don't actually care, or are crooked themselves. If one isn't trained as (or thinking as) a scientist, then I think it's easy to miss the importance of documenting expected r…

> If one isn't trained as (or thinking as) a scientist, then...

Reaction: When possible, leave "science" out of any broad-based public policy discussion. Between the people with negative reactions to the word, and those who tune out "because science is hard stuff", and those who start judging the arguments by "how fancy is his lab coat?" criteria - it's seriously counter-productive.

> ...if one wants to argue against police claims that body-cams offer sufficient...argue from specific cases where...

YES, that is the right approach. Go directly there. And pick your specific cases very carefully, to make it extra-clear to your audience that naive quick fixes - which all-too-many of them really want to believe in - are nothing but different brands of square tires.

Re: Police have undermined the promise of body cameras

#22

Post by btbuildem » Thu, Dec 14, 2023, 3:13 PM UTC

> And so as policymakers rushed to equip the police with cameras, they often failed to grapple with a fundamental question: Who would control the footage? Instead, they defaulted to leaving police departments [..] with the power to decide what is recorded, who can see it and when.

I think it's incredibly naive to portray this as a "defaulting" or "failing to grapple with a fundamental question".

I am 100% certain "who controls the footage" was the first question out of the police brass' mouths, and the crucial point in negotiations, where conceding to let the police themselves control the footage allowed the use of bodycams in the first place.

Nothing was left to chance here, this is entirely deliberate.

Re: Police have undermined the promise of body cameras

#23

Post by hindsightbias » Thu, Dec 14, 2023, 3:14 PM UTC

bell-cot wrote: post #2

Immediate Reaction: Um, yes? Only the naive, self-deluding, and techno-utopians would have expected otherwise. Vs. an experienced teller from a well-run 1950's podunk bank could tell you that no security technology is worth crap if the managers don't actually care, or are crooked themselves.

But you hav to admire the opportunities that other obvious players like GoPro seem to have missed out on:

"Motorola Solutions Raises Spending on Body Cameras to Grab Market Share The equipment maker expects revenue in its video-security business to jump more than 20% this year after a 30.7% leap last year"

https://www.wsj.com/articles/motorola-solutions-raises-spend...

Re: Police have undermined the promise of body cameras

#24

Post by engineer_22 » Thu, Dec 14, 2023, 3:14 PM UTC

RecycledEle wrote: post #13

Until it is a felony for a cop to turn off a camera, Until it is a felony to not upload all video within 1 hour of the end of the cops shift and make it publicly available on the web with geotagging left in place, I live under a tyranny.

I think this is an extreme view. I think we can all agree that body cam footage is an important tool to get justice, but in the interest of public safety I don't think providing bad actors real time information about police habits and location is a good idea.

Re: Police have undermined the promise of body cameras

#25

Post by lotsofpulp » Thu, Dec 14, 2023, 3:14 PM UTC

paxys wrote: post #19

Eumenes wrote: post #9

I want elected officials to wear body cameras too

How many hours of C-Span have you watched in your life? Detailed minutes of Congress proceedings from like 1800 are available for you to peruse if you'd like. Transparency isn't the problem – everything is happening fully out in the open.

There are literally closed door legislative sessions that are not transparent. Plus the adage “business is done on the golf course”.

Re: Police have undermined the promise of body cameras

#26

Post by RecycledEle » Thu, Dec 14, 2023, 3:14 PM UTC

Information is power. I want information to be available to as many people as possible or available to nobody.

Suggestion: When an altercation occurs, everyone with a recording of it should upload it to a public web site where all video is permanently available to the public. Anyone not uploading their video is assumed by the courts to be at fault for the altercation.

Another suggestion: All recordings in public places must be geotagged and uploaded to a public web site within 24 hours where they become part of the public record. This can be implemented with the creation of a government website and software updates to cameras/DVRs/phones.

Re: Police have undermined the promise of body cameras

#27

Post by proee » Thu, Dec 14, 2023, 3:16 PM UTC

Police should wear two body cameras, maybe even one worn on the back to show the entire scene. Why not make them wireless as well and send back to central to ensure they are getting recorded.

Re: Police have undermined the promise of body cameras

#28

Post by engineer_22 » Thu, Dec 14, 2023, 3:17 PM UTC

NickC25 wrote: post #15

sixothree wrote: post #6

Without adversarial third party oversight police will continue to abuse the public.

This. So much this. The problem is that due to the underlying need for police cooperation in unrelated cases, no sane DA or judge would dare challenge a cop (or the police union) who can claim "oh it was a malfunction" or "oh uh the battery ran out" when it comes time for video footage to be reviewed and made public in the case of a police officer breaking the law. My proposal: make it someone's (or an anonymous boar…

State and Federal gov'ts have priority in prosecution. If it is true that DA or judge are reticent to prosecute, then the appropriate avenue is State/Fed

Re: Police have undermined the promise of body cameras

#29

Post by Zigurd » Thu, Dec 14, 2023, 3:18 PM UTC

sixothree wrote: post #6

Without adversarial third party oversight police will continue to abuse the public.

This should apply to all evidence and witness statement gathering and processing. It should all be handled separately from police and prosecutors and made equally available to both sides if it comes to prosecution. The incentives should be toward accuracy, not convictions.

Re: Police have undermined the promise of body cameras

#30

Post by docdeek » Thu, Dec 14, 2023, 3:18 PM UTC

Eumenes wrote: post #9

I want elected officials to wear body cameras too

That was a plot point in ‘The Circle’ by Dave Eggers. Elected officials were encouraged and then shamed/forced into wearing cameras and livestreaming all their activities. The idea was they they wouldn’t take bribes or submit to lobbyist demands if they were being watched online 24/7. The end result of this sort of transparency, though, was rather dystopian, a lot of unintended consequences.