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Htmx Is a Erlang

matt.sh

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Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#21

Post by sshine »

> also, 25,000 hours in 15 years? what kind of rookie lazy piece of shit numbers are those? [...]

Since we're bashing dumb comments with dumb comments, the Twitter comment is actually saying:

over 25,000 hours

Assuming

  - 5 weeks of vacation each year
  - 8 hours of work, 5 days a week
That's

  (52 - 5) * 5 days * 8 hours * 15 years = 28.200 hours
If he worked any harder than that, that's still over 25,000 hours.

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#22

Post by snowstormsun »

> ah yes, the famous XSS coming from your own backend API calls…

Author does not seem to understand the concept of XSS. Of course your own API could return user-provided data to trigger XSS attacks. Entering alert(1); in a messenger to see whether its rendered value is escaped correctly is a famous example.

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#23

Post by couchand »

davedx wrote: post #17

It's powerful to have your front-end library automagically run code returned by your API, sure. But you can't hand-wave the security concerns of that away by ridiculing the people trying to discuss them. There is a fundamental difference between your server returning data versus returning code. If you don't want to accept that, fine, it's your project, or career, whatever. But if you conduct extensive ad hominems aga…

> But you can't hand-wave the security concerns of that away...

What security concerns, exactly?

> There is a fundamental difference between your server returning data versus returning code.

If my server returns a bit of something, and then my application code running in the browser takes conditional action based on that return value, was it data or was it code?

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#25

Post by codeptualize »

truculent wrote: post #8
coolhand2120 wrote: post #5

Reading that entire thing was a struggle. Really feels like _everyone_ is wrong here. Yes the current state of FE development is overly dogmatic and cultish. But it always has been. On the other hand the frameworks and build systems are solving actual problems, they're not there for looks. 5-7 second skeleton loaders are there because backend systems are slow, not because of the front end application. You can say "oh…

> The problem with FE is that they seem to be wannabe nodejs BE devs instead of the W3C experts they should be What are the best resources for someone interested in being a W3C expert? (Aside from just slogging through https://www.w3.org/TR/ )

MDN is one of the best resources imo https://developer.mozilla.org/

Generally more practical than W3C.

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#26

Post by ahmedfromtunis »

aidenn0 wrote: post #20
jlundberg wrote: post #4

This read has a surprising amount of depth and funny style. Recommended if you enjoy conversations about web security.

YMMV: I agreed with the points, but found the depth to be rather minimal and the style to be completely off-putting.

The style is rather confusing, and hinders comprehension rather than improve it.

The text jumps from one topic to the other so abruptly that I had to check multiple times if I'm still reading the same article.

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#27

Post by coolhand2120 »

felixgallo wrote: post #7
coolhand2120 wrote: post #5

Reading that entire thing was a struggle. Really feels like _everyone_ is wrong here. Yes the current state of FE development is overly dogmatic and cultish. But it always has been. On the other hand the frameworks and build systems are solving actual problems, they're not there for looks. 5-7 second skeleton loaders are there because backend systems are slow, not because of the front end application. You can say "oh…

there is no way any competently written back end system takes 5-7 seconds for any reason whatsoever. A middling back end system with median complexity is doing 10-100K requests per second per server and is near-perfectly horizontally scalable.

If you serve data from a DC in California to the west coast of Australia it will take 10 seconds of just network transfer time. Sometimes data has a high degree of cardinality and cannot be cached. Some companies cannot afford to, or for other reasons cannot, have regional instances of their compute surfaces. This is just one common scenario, there are many others.

> A middling back end system with median complexity is doing 10-100K requests per second per server and is near-perfectly horizontally scalable.

You know perfectly your SLAs without knowing anything about the business, data, or the user access pattern? You don't even need a budget? Impressive!

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#28

Post by felixgallo »

ch4s3 wrote: post #16
felixgallo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there is no way any competently written back end system takes 5-7 seconds for any reason whatsoever. A middling back end system with median complexity is doing 10-100K requests per second per server and is near-perfectly horizontally scalable.

> there is no way any competently written back end system takes 5-7 seconds for any reason whatsoever. I'd argue that even a well written system that allows arbitrary date ranges and filtering of data can easily run past that limit. You just can always know ahead of time what some client might request and some strategies for making normal queries fast can make some queries slower. Its tradeoffs all the way down.

definitely not. If you don't already know ahead of time what a client might request, and just let them request anything arbitrarily without regard for whether that data is indexed or cached, then you are not competently writing a backend system.

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#29

Post by Spivak »

felixgallo wrote: post #7
coolhand2120 wrote: post #5

Reading that entire thing was a struggle. Really feels like _everyone_ is wrong here. Yes the current state of FE development is overly dogmatic and cultish. But it always has been. On the other hand the frameworks and build systems are solving actual problems, they're not there for looks. 5-7 second skeleton loaders are there because backend systems are slow, not because of the front end application. You can say "oh…

there is no way any competently written back end system takes 5-7 seconds for any reason whatsoever. A middling back end system with median complexity is doing 10-100K requests per second per server and is near-perfectly horizontally scalable.

Yeah, for anyone reading this that doesn't know these are embarrassing numbers. We call it an outage if our p95 latency goes above 100ms for more than a minute. Even if you think this is aggressive 50x slower is not normal. There will be necessarily be tasks that take longer than that but don't make your user sit there with the page just spinning. Post back when the task is finished asynchronously. Especially on mobile where those kinds of delays are assumed to be issues with the network and users will just hit the x and refresh.

Re: Htmx Is a Erlang

#30

Post by miki123211 »

> htmx, a disciple of hypermedia, available only in hardcover do not look for alternatives, has been manifesting itself into existence recently

As a screen reader user with no way to read words written on paper (short of getting a scanner and spending hours on putting books through it), I have to look for alternatives. I hate it when authors do this. I get why, but it's still frustrating.

There's also the fact that the author of this article decided to embed X posts as unlabeled screenshots for some unknown reason. This breaks accessibility, copy/paste, translations, flexible screen layouts and probably a bunch of other things I'm not aware of. Putting text in images is never a good idea, much less so when there's a perfectly fine embeds API for GOd's sake.

I'm really saddened to see somebody who claims to care about web standards be so dismissive of accessibility concerns.

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