Live data from Hacker News

Large language models lack deep insights or a theory of mind

arxiv.org

21–30 of 270 posts

Re: Large language models lack deep insights or a theory of mind

#21
post #9

I appreciate this paper for relatively clearly stating what "human-like" might entail, which in this case involves "reasoning about the causes behind other people's behavior" which is "critical to navigate the social world" as outlined in this citation: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00100... I get frustrated often when people argue "well, it isn't really intelligent" and then give examples th…

The underlying problem is that "intelligence" is itself a crappy, poorly defined word with a fraught and inconsistent history.

It doesn't appear until the early 20th century, in the shadow of compulsory education and the challenges it presented, first as a technical label for attempts to sort students -- and later soldiers -- into the tracks in which they're most likely to succeed, and then being haphazardly asserted (but not scientifically evidenced) as some general measure of mental aptitude.

At that point it shifts from something qualitative (which mental tasks might someone be good at) to something quantitative (how much more might one personal excel at all mental tasks than another), and the burgeoning field of modern American psychology goes "Aha! A quantitative measure! Here's our meal ticket to being recognized as a science instead of those quacks from Vienna", with far too much at stake to either question the many assumptions at play or the inconsistent history of usage.

Momentum takes hold and the public takes the word into its everyday vernacular, even while it's still not a clear and sound concept in its technical domain. [Most of this is history is more academically covered in Danziger's 1987 "Naming the Mind" which is excellent, and critical foundational reading to contextualize recent hot discussions in AI]

The way you're using it when you worry about "super-intelligence" is in the sense of intelligence being some universal, unbounded, quantitative independent variable along the lines of "the more intelligent something is, the more cunningly it can pursue some rationalized goal" -- some master strategist.

That's fine, and you're not alone in that, but there's not really any sound scientific groundwork to establish that there exists some quality of the world that scales like that. You're fear, and what you try to distinguish conceptually from what the paper addresses, is an inductive leap made from highly unstable ground. It's in the same invented, purely abstract idea-space of "omnipotence" or "omniscience" where one takes a practical idea like "power to influence" or "ability to know fact" and inductively draws a line from these practical senses towards some abstract infinite/incomprehensible version of that thing. But that inductive leap a Platonic logician's parlor trick and ends up raising all kinds of abstract paradoxes, as well countless physical impracticalities about how such things could exist.

So a lot of people (academic and lay) just aren't with you in taking that framing of intelligence very seriously. For many, an "super-intelligent" software whose "motives" we don't understand is just a program that produces incorrect outputs and ought to be debugged or retired, and the more interesting questions around machine "intelligence" are practical ones like "what tasks are these programs well-suited for". Here, the authors point out that the current batch of programs are not good at tasks that benefit from a theory of mind.

Knowing the answer to that kind of question reaches back to the earliest and least disputable sense of the word, where we saw that some new students and soldiers excelled at certain tasks and struggled with others, and wanted to understand how best to educated/assign them. And likewise, as we look at these tools, the pressing question for engineers and businesses is "what are they good for and what are they not good for" rather than the fantastical "what if we make a broken program and it wants to kill everyone and we don't notice and forget to shut it off"

Re: Large language models lack deep insights or a theory of mind

#22
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bad liars seem to have difficulty with theory of mind. Sometimes ChatGPT comes across somewhat like this.

Alternately good liars probably have a solid theory of mind. You need to tell the other person what they are likely to believe so you need to know how they think.

> good liars probably have a solid theory of mind

That, and confidence, and ideally a good memory so that they can keep track of what they have previously said to someone.

Re: Large language models lack deep insights or a theory of mind

#23

In Buddhism there’s the idea that our core self is awareness, which is silent - it doesn’t think in a perceptible way, it doesn’t feel in a visceral way, but it underpins thought and feeling, and is greatly impacted by it. A large part of meditation and “release of suffering” is learning to let your awareness lead your thinking rather than your thinking lead your awareness. To be clear, I think this is in fact a corr…

Another idea from Buddhism is that this core of awareness you're talking about is nothingness. So when you stop all thought (if such a thing is really possible), you temporarily cease to exist as an individual consciousness. "Awareness" is when the thoughts come back online and you think "whoa, I was just gone for a bit".

If that's how it works, then the "soul" is more like an emergent phenomenon created by the interplay between the various layers of conscious thought and the base layer of nothingness when it's all turned off. That architecture wouldn't necessarily be so difficult to replicate in AI systems.

Re: Large language models lack deep insights or a theory of mind

#24

In Buddhism there’s the idea that our core self is awareness, which is silent - it doesn’t think in a perceptible way, it doesn’t feel in a visceral way, but it underpins thought and feeling, and is greatly impacted by it. A large part of meditation and “release of suffering” is learning to let your awareness lead your thinking rather than your thinking lead your awareness. To be clear, I think this is in fact a corr…

This is a profound question but I also wonder if this non-thinking “awareness” you’re referring to is largely defined by quieting the thinking mind and listening to the senses more directly. A lot of meditation is about tuning out thoughts and focusing on proprioception like breathing, the feelings of the body, etc.

Re: Large language models lack deep insights or a theory of mind

#25

The fun question is whether human cognition similarly lacks deep insights or said theory of mind. I perceive a moving of the goalposts as machine intelligence improves. Once we'd have been happy with smarter than an especially stupid person, now I think we're aiming at smarter than the smartest person.

> I perceive a moving of the goalposts as machine intelligence improves.

Goal posts only exist in games.

These systems are engineering products to be leveraged in enginenering processes. We want to understand what they're good at and what they're bad at, and what potential they show for further refinement. There are no goal posts or "happy with" criteria in that context, and when we find ourselves adjusting the language we use to describe them because of how we see them work, we're trying to refine our ability to express their capabilities and suitabilities.

Intelligence, in particular, is a very poor and ambiguous word to be stuck using in technical contexts and so we're likely to just gradually shed it over time to reduce confusion as we hone in on better ways to talk about these systems. We've repeatedly done the same for earlier advances in the field, and for the same reason.

Re: Large language models lack deep insights or a theory of mind

#26
> A chief goal of artificial intelligence is to build machines that think like people.

I disagree with the topic sentence.

The goal should not be to "build machines that think like people", but to build machines that think, period. The way humans think is unlikely to be the optimal way to go about thinking anyways.

Instead of talking about thinking, we should be talking about function. Less philosophy and more reality. Can the system reason itself through various representative challenges as well as or better than human? If yes, it doesn't much matter how it does it. In fact, it's probably for the best if we can create AI that thinks completely different than humans, has no consciousness or self awareness, but still can do what humans can do and more.

Re: Large language models lack deep insights or a theory of mind

#28
post #20

Another paper in a long series that confuses "our tests against currently available LLMs tuned for specific tasks found that they didn't perform well on our task" with "LLMs are architecturally unsuitable for our task".

There is no reason to believe (evidence) that any meaning ascribed to an LLM's utterances comes from the LLM rather than being pareidolia. If you've found some, please let everyone know.

You would first have to define what you mean with "meaning" and "pareidolia" in this context.

Re: Large language models lack deep insights or a theory of mind

#29

In Buddhism there’s the idea that our core self is awareness, which is silent - it doesn’t think in a perceptible way, it doesn’t feel in a visceral way, but it underpins thought and feeling, and is greatly impacted by it. A large part of meditation and “release of suffering” is learning to let your awareness lead your thinking rather than your thinking lead your awareness. To be clear, I think this is in fact a corr…

Maybe the soul is social, and oriented towards others? I believe it can be constructed.

If you assume that "the eyes are the window to the soul", you notice some interesting properties.

1. It is far more observable from the outside (eyes open/lidded/closed, emotion read in eyes)

2. It affects behavior in a diffuse way

3. It pays attention but does not dictate

Re: Large language models lack deep insights or a theory of mind

#30
I think that if they would, that would be very surprising and indicative of a lot of wastefulness inside the model architecture. All these tests are simple single prompt experiments, so the LLM's get no chance to reason about their responses. They're just system 1 thinking, the equivalent of putting a gun to someone's head and asking them to solve a large division in 2 seconds.

I bet a lot of these experiments would already solvable by putting the LLM in a simple loop with some helper prompts that make it restructure and validate its answers, form theories and get to explore multiple lines of thought.

If an LLM would be able to do that in a single prompt, without a loop (so the LLM always answers in a predictable amount of time), then it would mean its entire reasoning structure is repeated horizontally through the layers of its architecture. That would be both limiting (i.e. limit the depth of the reasoning to the width of the network) and very expensive to train.

Post reply on HN