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Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

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Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#21

Post by bluescrn »

bitwize wrote: post #13
whalesalad wrote: post #3

Different strokes for different folks. I’m a very happy single family home dweller. Living in a dense city feels claustrophobic.

The Anglosphere is more car dependent and more prone to NIMBY policies and housing shortages than continental Europe, because continental Europeans are more comfortable with density. Density is the solution to many land management problems.

It's not about being 'comfortable with density', it's about having a society where neighbours respect each other, behave decently, and keep noise/mess under control, don't keep setting the fire alarm off, etc.

The noise problem isn't limited to loud music and parties, just the noise of kids playing loudly and running around in communal areas can become infuriating to neighbours.

Even if you've got good neighbours, there's other downsides with flats - a lack of parking/EV charging, often nowhere to safely store a bicycle even. No space to install personal 'green tech' such as solar or a heat pump. No garage/shed to store tools/bikes/hobby equipment.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#22

Post by jeffbee »

bitwize wrote: post #13
whalesalad wrote: post #3

Different strokes for different folks. I’m a very happy single family home dweller. Living in a dense city feels claustrophobic.

The Anglosphere is more car dependent and more prone to NIMBY policies and housing shortages than continental Europe, because continental Europeans are more comfortable with density. Density is the solution to many land management problems.

I suggest that the cause of the anglosphere housing crisis is a shared legal system, which sucks, and which is not practiced by anyone else.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#23

Post by lelima »

RicDan wrote: post #4

Great way to tell a story and bring data closer to the reader. Educational pages could learn a thing or two from this one.

Great point, imagine learning about Roman history and some 3d models of the Roman cities pops up.

Work environment have changed so much in the latest years and I feel school remained the same. Last week a young family member asked what does excel do? and she's about to enter college, and we're talking about Ireland that it supposed to have a good school system

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#24

Post by alephnerd »

rsynnott wrote: post #19

> Only in South Korea more people live in collective dwellings than in Spain. I... have doubts. (Looks like they're only looking at OECD countries, so Singapore and HK, the most obvious counter-examples, are excluded.)

Singapore and HK are outliers in general as they're city states (and the latter won't be a separate government in 23 years anyhow).

Also by OECD standards it definetly tracks.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#25

Post by galangalalgol »

bedobi wrote: post #20
flagged24 wrote: post #15

I'm okay with these high rises so I can enjoy the quiet tranquility of rural Spain. Everytime we do stay in an apartment in Spain the lack of sound proofing really stands out. Perhaps even more so because everything is tiled, no carpets.

was gonna comment the same :melting face: I'm an armchair urbanist and all about density, and in well built buildings it's fine, even with tiled floors you can't really hear your neighbors but in Spain it's as if the buildings are built with zero soundproofing - you hear every single neighbor in the whole building and their tvs, radios, conversations, footsteps... it's maddening, I don't understand it

Noise is the largest complaint my spouse has with dense buildings. I tune things out easily, but I also found myself self conscious about walking softly when I lived above people.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#26

Post by huytersd »

bluescrn wrote: post #21
bitwize wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Anglosphere is more car dependent and more prone to NIMBY policies and housing shortages than continental Europe, because continental Europeans are more comfortable with density. Density is the solution to many land management problems.

It's not about being 'comfortable with density', it's about having a society where neighbours respect each other, behave decently, and keep noise/mess under control, don't keep setting the fire alarm off, etc. The noise problem isn't limited to loud music and parties, just the noise of kids playing loudly and running around in communal areas can become infuriating to neighbours. Even if you've got good neighbours, th…

It isn’t. If all my neighbors were angels I still wouldn’t want to live densely.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#27

Post by bertil »

rsynnott wrote: post #19

> Only in South Korea more people live in collective dwellings than in Spain. I... have doubts. (Looks like they're only looking at OECD countries, so Singapore and HK, the most obvious counter-examples, are excluded.)

I’m tempted to think that the author saw those two examples (and Monaco) as cities more than countries, which, for an analysis of urban density makes sense. That would be like excluding the Vatican from an analysis of immigration.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#28

Post by rsynnott »

whalesalad wrote: post #3

Different strokes for different folks. I’m a very happy single family home dweller. Living in a dense city feels claustrophobic.

Yes, takes all sorts, and probably a lot of it comes down to what you're used to. Paradoxically I find being down the country claustrophobic; in truly rural areas (and in places with particularly poor provision for pedestrians, like most of the US, this often manifests even in outer suburbs) you can't really get anywhere without driving, and you may not be able to leave your house at all without driving (probably no footpath, narrow unsafe road).

I'd never consider living somewhere where I couldn't, at minimum, walk to supermarkets, bars, restaurants, parks, etc.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#29

Post by rsynnott »

jeffbee wrote: post #22
bitwize wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Anglosphere is more car dependent and more prone to NIMBY policies and housing shortages than continental Europe, because continental Europeans are more comfortable with density. Density is the solution to many land management problems.

I suggest that the cause of the anglosphere housing crisis is a shared legal system, which sucks, and which is not practiced by anyone else.

Singapore and HK had or have close relatives of it, and don't have similar issues with density.

Re: Spain lives in flats: why we have built our cities vertically

#30

Post by t-3 »

bluescrn wrote: post #21
bitwize wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Anglosphere is more car dependent and more prone to NIMBY policies and housing shortages than continental Europe, because continental Europeans are more comfortable with density. Density is the solution to many land management problems.

It's not about being 'comfortable with density', it's about having a society where neighbours respect each other, behave decently, and keep noise/mess under control, don't keep setting the fire alarm off, etc. The noise problem isn't limited to loud music and parties, just the noise of kids playing loudly and running around in communal areas can become infuriating to neighbours. Even if you've got good neighbours, th…

Ah, yes, Americans are uncivilized barbarians who fight and are raucous at all times. Great to see that European colonialist spirit alive!
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