Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's not voluntary unless/until you can find me a place where housing/land is free. Prison. > The end result is that you work or you die (out of exposure, medical bills, etc). Not much different from the slavery from the old days? Sounds like your definition of slavery is nobody taking care of you.
In much of the US you actually have to either work or pay rent in prison, so no.
It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft
21–30 of 54 posts
Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft
#22"Former" is the key. A lot of people will say things like that when they're no (longer?) in position to actually make a difference - it's a safe way to garner sympathy and attention without actually making the decision and be responsible for its consequences. I can guarantee you he wouldn't have the same opinion if he was still in his position and had political power to be able to actually allow this. People working…
Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not voluntary unless/until you can find me a place where housing/land is free. Sure, the slavery is "distributed" across multiple actors such as landlords & profit off the whole concept of property as an asset, but ultimately the net result is the same - you have to work just to be afforded shelter. The end result is that you work or you die (out of exposure, medical bills, etc). Not much different from the slav…
The conspicuous difference is that you can choose who to work for and in consequences employers have to compete for labor, which is why the overwhelming majority of people make more than minimum wage. You're also setting up a catch 22 where things like housing construction, which require labor to exist, are a prerequisite to not having slavery, but if no one has to do labor to construct housing then where does it com…
> where things like housing construction, which require labor to exist
That's why I mentioned land and not only housing. In fact in most places the land is more expensive than the building on top. Even if you hypothetically wanted to just put a tent somewhere and not require on any external labor, you'd still need to buy/rent the land first.
Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft
#24Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not voluntary unless/until you can find me a place where housing/land is free. Sure, the slavery is "distributed" across multiple actors such as landlords & profit off the whole concept of property as an asset, but ultimately the net result is the same - you have to work just to be afforded shelter. The end result is that you work or you die (out of exposure, medical bills, etc). Not much different from the slav…
> It's not voluntary unless/until you can find me a place where housing/land is free. Prison. > The end result is that you work or you die (out of exposure, medical bills, etc). Not much different from the slavery from the old days? Sounds like your definition of slavery is nobody taking care of you.
If people start using prison as this "one weird trick they don't want you to know" to not pay rent, this problem will be solved pretty quickly too (if it isn't already, as the other commenter suggests forced prison labor is a thing in some places).
Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
In much of the US you actually have to either work or pay rent in prison, so no.
Really? I've never heard this and a quick google doesn't bear this out. Also, it's not clear to me what they would actually do to you if you didn't...put you in prison? Release you as punishment?
Which leads to this: https://innocenceproject.org/how-the-13th-amendment-kept-sla...
Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft
#26Earlier quoted context omitted.
The conspicuous difference is that you can choose who to work for and in consequences employers have to compete for labor, which is why the overwhelming majority of people make more than minimum wage. You're also setting up a catch 22 where things like housing construction, which require labor to exist, are a prerequisite to not having slavery, but if no one has to do labor to construct housing then where does it com…
Minimum wage is an arbitrary construct that may have been reasonable when it was initially introduced but due to dysfunctional politics/corruption (or "lobbying") hasn't been updated to reflect the cost of living especially with regards to property prices, so making minimum wage isn't a high bar. > where things like housing construction, which require labor to exist That's why I mentioned land and not only housing. I…
Irrelevant. The point is that you could set the minimum wage to zero and people would still make wages higher than that because employers have to compete for labor.
> That's why I mentioned land and not only housing. In fact in most places the land is more expensive than the building on top.
But this is really not any different -- depending on how you define it land is either a scare resource you can't get any more of at all or something that requires labor to create more of, e.g. by building sea platforms or similar.
And people don't actually need any particular amount of land in order to have shelter. You can build an arbitrarily large amount of shelter on a given piece of land by building an arbitrarily tall building. In theory there is a limit on how tall a building you could make, but in practice if we built buildings of the largest size we know how to build on the amount of land that actually exists we would have dramatically more housing than is needed for everyone.
So the limiting factor is not actually land, it's construction, which somebody has to do in order for you to have shelter.
Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft
#27"Former" is the key. A lot of people will say things like that when they're no (longer?) in position to actually make a difference - it's a safe way to garner sympathy and attention without actually making the decision and be responsible for its consequences. I can guarantee you he wouldn't have the same opinion if he was still in his position and had political power to be able to actually allow this. People working…
Just a little back of the envelope economics: if everyone thinks the way you do -> labor supply doubles -> wages go down -> working two jobs is now the expectation
Similar economic side effects to having both genders in the workforce. This lifestyle only "works out" so long as most people are unwilling to do what you're doing
Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
> It's not voluntary unless/until you can find me a place where housing/land is free. Prison. > The end result is that you work or you die (out of exposure, medical bills, etc). Not much different from the slavery from the old days? Sounds like your definition of slavery is nobody taking care of you.
> Prison. If people start using prison as this "one weird trick they don't want you to know" to not pay rent, this problem will be solved pretty quickly too (if it isn't already, as the other commenter suggests forced prison labor is a thing in some places).
Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft
#29"Former" is the key. A lot of people will say things like that when they're no (longer?) in position to actually make a difference - it's a safe way to garner sympathy and attention without actually making the decision and be responsible for its consequences. I can guarantee you he wouldn't have the same opinion if he was still in his position and had political power to be able to actually allow this. People working…
> because this allows the slave to be less financially dependent on the master Just a little back of the envelope economics: if everyone thinks the way you do -> labor supply doubles -> wages go down -> working two jobs is now the expectation Similar economic side effects to having both genders in the workforce. This lifestyle only "works out" so long as most people are unwilling to do what you're doing
Short of some radical changes around the whole concept of "property", I think this may end up being the norm anyway considering property price inflation?
After all, people need a place to live, so if there's more value to extract, why wouldn't the landlords (and all the industries supporting them) cash in on that?
Re: It shouldn't matter if people work multiple jobs. -Former VP of HR at Microsoft
#30Earlier quoted context omitted.
Really? I've never heard this and a quick google doesn't bear this out. Also, it's not clear to me what they would actually do to you if you didn't...put you in prison? Release you as punishment?
13th amendment: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted , shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. Which leads to this: https://innocenceproject.org/how-the-13th-amendment-kept-sla...