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Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

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Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#21

Post by johnea »

ClassyJacket wrote: post #9

Toyota will do anything except take electric cars seriously. Shame. They were the industry leaders with hybrids.

Toyota, along with all other Japanese auto makers, have developed the worlds most long running internal combustion engines.

Now, electric is threatening to completely eliminate their market advantage of high longevity cars.

So, they'll come up with any excuse not to switch away from complex mechanisms. Since this is their primary advantage in the market.

Hybrid, which is still a gas powered vehicle, is even more complex mechanically. Having both an internal combustion AND an electric power train, with a complex mechanical transmission for allowing both to run at once.

So while hybrid cars where even more in the Japanese expertise of long lasting mechanisms, electric vehicles are in the exact opposite direction. Etremmely simple mechanically.

It is sad. Not only did they lead with hybrids, they also led when the US "big 3" were so entrenched and had allowed their products to become crap, because no one really had a choice. Then Datson, Honda and Toyota brought very small, inexpensive, high reliability vehicles to the US, and were massively successful.

It's so ironic that now they want to sell bloated "luxury" vehicles, just likje the US big 3.

They've become the pox they originally succeded by countering...

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#22

Post by scrlk »

Arrath wrote: post #15
KiwiJohnno wrote: post #4

I'm not buying this at all. People freak out about EV battery fires now (never mind that this is not actually the problem it is made out to be), can you imagine the hazmat situation from a couple of cars carrying who knows how many KG of Anhydrous Ammonia crashing into each other? I mean, you might make the fuel tanks extremely robust (and heavy) but fuel lines etc will still break. Ammonia in the air at 300 PPM will…

Where did they even come up with the idea to use anhydrous ammonia as a fuel? Did some tired engineer suggest it as a jest at the tail end of an exhausting meeting and, to their horror, it was moved forward? This reminds me of rocket scientists trying out ever nastier and deadlier chemicals in the early days of space exploration.

> This reminds me of rocket scientists trying out ever nastier and deadlier chemicals in the early days of space exploration.

An engineer at Toyota must be a big fan of John Clark's "Ignition!", or Derek Lowe's "Things I Won't Work With" series.

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#24

Post by scrlk »

sindriava wrote: post #19
almost_usual wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now imagine when a large earthquake hits a place like San Francisco. Most of the damage from the 1906 quake was caused by fire.

So what was on fire in 1906? Presumably cars were not nearly as widespread. Has anything relevant changed since then?

> Within three days, over 30 fires, caused by ruptured gas mains, destroyed approximately 25,000 buildings on 490 city blocks. The fires cost an estimated $350 million at the time (equivalent to $8.08 billion in 2021).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1906_San_Francisco_earthquake#...

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#25

Post by almost_usual »

sindriava wrote: post #19
almost_usual wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now imagine when a large earthquake hits a place like San Francisco. Most of the damage from the 1906 quake was caused by fire.

So what was on fire in 1906? Presumably cars were not nearly as widespread. Has anything relevant changed since then?

> So what was on fire in 1906?

The entire city, if you’re asking what started the fire ruptured gas mains caused quite a few.

> Has anything relevant changed since then?

The city is full of Lithium Ion batteries that can burn uncontrollably when crushed or punctured. These fires cannot be extinguished quickly unless special chemicals are used.

SFFD has 43 engines and 19 ladder trucks.

https://sf-fire.org/about-sffd-operations

SF also has the Auxillary Water Supply System (AWSS) but extinguishing many EV fires will not be practical with only water.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Fire_Departmen...

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#26

Post by hondo77 »

sindriava wrote: post #19
almost_usual wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now imagine when a large earthquake hits a place like San Francisco. Most of the damage from the 1906 quake was caused by fire.

So what was on fire in 1906? Presumably cars were not nearly as widespread. Has anything relevant changed since then?

Lots. Of. Wood.

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#27

Post by brohee »

Arrath wrote: post #15
KiwiJohnno wrote: post #4

I'm not buying this at all. People freak out about EV battery fires now (never mind that this is not actually the problem it is made out to be), can you imagine the hazmat situation from a couple of cars carrying who knows how many KG of Anhydrous Ammonia crashing into each other? I mean, you might make the fuel tanks extremely robust (and heavy) but fuel lines etc will still break. Ammonia in the air at 300 PPM will…

Where did they even come up with the idea to use anhydrous ammonia as a fuel? Did some tired engineer suggest it as a jest at the tail end of an exhausting meeting and, to their horror, it was moved forward? This reminds me of rocket scientists trying out ever nastier and deadlier chemicals in the early days of space exploration.

If you dismiss hydrogen as fuel made from renewable electricity, and frankly you should on density and safety basis, the two most practical options are methane and ammonia.

Ammonia got an easy electrity to fuel process, easier than methane that starts with hydrogen. Ammonia is kinda nasty but used plenty (for example in cooling) without a terrible safety record. Not sure that safety is a better argument against it than the lack of distribution network.

I think ammonia will find its niche in shipping, but I just can't see it on the road.

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#28

Post by cbo100 »

369548684892826 wrote: post #8
KiwiJohnno wrote: post #4

I'm not buying this at all. People freak out about EV battery fires now (never mind that this is not actually the problem it is made out to be), can you imagine the hazmat situation from a couple of cars carrying who knows how many KG of Anhydrous Ammonia crashing into each other? I mean, you might make the fuel tanks extremely robust (and heavy) but fuel lines etc will still break. Ammonia in the air at 300 PPM will…

> People freak out about EV battery fires now (never mind that this is not actually the problem it is made out to be) Looking like quite a problem over in Luton https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-67073...

No mention of EVs in that article, but even if there were, it's not like car fires are a new thing.

Maybe better phrasing would be "not actually the new problem it is made out to be"?

1,400 cars burn, not an EV in sight: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/u-k-parking-garage-fire-destroy...

and it seems fires at airport car parks are surprisingly common...

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manches...

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manches...

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#29

Post by e44858 »

I hope they come with a warning sticker so I can make sure to stay a mile away from them:

"Anhydrous ammonia is stored as a liquid under pressure. When released to the environment, though, it becomes a toxic gas. Liquid anhydrous ammonia expands 850 times when released to ambient air and can form large vapor clouds. It may aerosolize and behave as a dense gas, even though it is normally lighter than air. Anhydrous ammonia may also cause water vapor to condense in the air forming a visible white cloud. Therefore, when anhydrous ammonia is released to the air, it may travel along the ground in a cloud instead of immediately rising into the air and dispensing." https://msdh.ms.gov/msdhsite/index.cfm/43,320,230,349,html

Re: Toyota CEO: "Our ammonia engine is the end of EV's" [video]

#30

Post by spacemadness »

legohead wrote: post #17

Toyota is so weird about their EV stance. What I particularly like about EVs is their low maintenance. You remove many components that are required with ICE. Regenerative braking makes your brake pads last a crazy amount longer. And now with this ammonia engine we are adding even more components to the vehicle? No thanks. Not to even mention the fuel distribution problem.

I also like quiet. EVs gave me some hope for less noise pollution since Americans will never give up their cars. Reintroducing ICE brings us back to square one.
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