Bacteria converts carbon dioxide into liquid fuel • Hacker News Board

Re: Bacteria converts carbon dioxide into liquid fuel

#21

Post by reneherse » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 5:58 PM UTC

excuse-me wrote: post #12

uvdiv wrote: post #9

Unfortunately The Paper [1] is closed source. I can't find much information; no comparison with existing, chemical synfuels processes (like methanol via syngas [CO]). There's a serious problem with the general idea: "clean" CO2 is hard to get. You can get concentrated (>10%) CO2 streams from a power plant, which could work for synfuels, but ultimately that's still transferring fossil carbon into the air (if more effi…

You could do it effectively if you could create some massive dendritic type structure with a huge surface area of flat panels to absorb CO2 directly from the atmosphere. Since the CO2 concentration is so low you would need vast areas of these CO2 farms and so you would have to put some effort into making them look artistically pleasant to avoid public opposition. The construction costs would be incredible, the only s…

I could forsee such a scheme working, if only the flat panel collectors could be replaced on an annual basis. A period of system dormancy may be required prior to panel redeployment...

Re: Bacteria converts carbon dioxide into liquid fuel

#22

Post by pcowans » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 6:27 PM UTC

uvdiv wrote: post #9

Unfortunately The Paper [1] is closed source. I can't find much information; no comparison with existing, chemical synfuels processes (like methanol via syngas [CO]). There's a serious problem with the general idea: "clean" CO2 is hard to get. You can get concentrated (>10%) CO2 streams from a power plant, which could work for synfuels, but ultimately that's still transferring fossil carbon into the air (if more effi…

Starting from the other end of things, it clearly is possible to synthesise organic compounds from atmospheric concentrations of CO2 as nature does it already, the question is what sort of yield you can get.

My understanding is that using algae to do this via photosynthesis is limited by the fact that with wild strains you need to harvest and extract the biomass before you can get at the fuel, and you need to spread things out in a very thin film to get enough sunlight. Using modified strains helps solve the first problem, using (more efficient) synthetic photovoltaics, or another power source, with a process like this potentially helps solve the second.

To respond to another reply to this post, I don't think complex structures that maximise surface area would be necessary - you could just bubble air through the tank. As mentioned above, bubbling CO2 rich waste gasses from a power plant would likely be even more efficient.

Re: Bacteria converts carbon dioxide into liquid fuel

#23

Post by pcowans » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 6:35 PM UTC

pcowans wrote: post #22

uvdiv wrote: post #9

Unfortunately The Paper [1] is closed source. I can't find much information; no comparison with existing, chemical synfuels processes (like methanol via syngas [CO]). There's a serious problem with the general idea: "clean" CO2 is hard to get. You can get concentrated (>10%) CO2 streams from a power plant, which could work for synfuels, but ultimately that's still transferring fossil carbon into the air (if more effi…

Starting from the other end of things, it clearly is possible to synthesise organic compounds from atmospheric concentrations of CO2 as nature does it already, the question is what sort of yield you can get. My understanding is that using algae to do this via photosynthesis is limited by the fact that with wild strains you need to harvest and extract the biomass before you can get at the fuel, and you need to spread…

I'll also add a link to the Google Solve For X talk from Mike Cheiky / Cool Planet, as it's relevant here and pretty interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkYVlZ9v_0o

Re: Bacteria converts carbon dioxide into liquid fuel

#24

Post by droithomme » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 7:13 PM UTC

What could possibly go wrong.

edit: since I am being downvoted, I will state it explicitly. We are creating a simple, resiliant lifeform that grows and reproduces as long as it can eat carbon dioxide, of which there are essentially unlimited supplies on earth. We know from observing complex fragile invasive species that are brought in to new environments with unlimited food and no controls on growth what happens. They reproduce and grow until they run out of their food source. For example, bringing cats to australia to control rodents. Releasing this bacteria, which is neither complex nor fragile, into the wild has a reasonable chance of consuming vast amounts of CO2, producing petrochemicals as a waste product. The easily predictable outcome of this release is the elimination of nearly all life on the planet and creation of a toxic atmosphere similar to that on Titan.

Re: Bacteria converts carbon dioxide into liquid fuel

#25

Post by excuse-me » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 7:41 PM UTC

reneherse wrote: post #21

excuse-me wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could do it effectively if you could create some massive dendritic type structure with a huge surface area of flat panels to absorb CO2 directly from the atmosphere. Since the CO2 concentration is so low you would need vast areas of these CO2 farms and so you would have to put some effort into making them look artistically pleasant to avoid public opposition. The construction costs would be incredible, the only s…

I could forsee such a scheme working, if only the flat panel collectors could be replaced on an annual basis. A period of system dormancy may be required prior to panel redeployment...

And the support structures would need to have some sort of end of life reuse value aswell ?

Re: Bacteria converts carbon dioxide into liquid fuel

#26

Post by lifthearth » Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 7:47 PM UTC

reneherse wrote: post #21

excuse-me wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could do it effectively if you could create some massive dendritic type structure with a huge surface area of flat panels to absorb CO2 directly from the atmosphere. Since the CO2 concentration is so low you would need vast areas of these CO2 farms and so you would have to put some effort into making them look artistically pleasant to avoid public opposition. The construction costs would be incredible, the only s…

I could forsee such a scheme working, if only the flat panel collectors could be replaced on an annual basis. A period of system dormancy may be required prior to panel redeployment...

Somebody already tried this but had issues monetizing after multiple governments nationalized it. From there it suffered the tragedy of the commons. I don't think something like this would work unless the rights could be secured.

Re: Bacteria converts carbon dioxide into liquid fuel

#27

Post by Dylan16807 » Sat, Mar 31, 2012, 1:26 AM UTC

droithomme wrote: post #24

What could possibly go wrong. edit: since I am being downvoted, I will state it explicitly. We are creating a simple, resiliant lifeform that grows and reproduces as long as it can eat carbon dioxide, of which there are essentially unlimited supplies on earth. We know from observing complex fragile invasive species that are brought in to new environments with unlimited food and no controls on growth what happens. The…

What makes you think it's resilient? And it doesn't feed on CO2, it feeds on electricity. You do not find supplies of electricity sitting around in the wild.

Re: Bacteria converts carbon dioxide into liquid fuel

#28

Post by scimag » Sat, Mar 31, 2012, 6:50 AM UTC

uvdiv wrote: post #9

Unfortunately The Paper [1] is closed source. I can't find much information; no comparison with existing, chemical synfuels processes (like methanol via syngas [CO]). There's a serious problem with the general idea: "clean" CO2 is hard to get. You can get concentrated (>10%) CO2 streams from a power plant, which could work for synfuels, but ultimately that's still transferring fossil carbon into the air (if more effi…

The Paper: http://www.scribd.com/doc/87431323/Science-2012-Li-1596

Re: Bacteria converts carbon dioxide into liquid fuel

#29

Post by gus_massa » Sat, Mar 31, 2012, 10:04 PM UTC

WiseWeasel wrote: post #20

ScottBurson wrote: post #11

In short, it sounds like you could have a car with solar panels on the roof, and they could drive the creation of liquid fuel that could then be used to power the car’s engine. Sure. Leave your car in the sun for a week and you can drive it three miles. People need to get how diffuse solar energy is. (Oh, and could someone fix the title? "Bacteria" is plural.)

Exactly right. The premise that this technology would be integrated into cars is ridiculous, and my guess is it was added by the "journalist". This technology would most likely be used in places where feeds of concentrated CO2 are already available, such as coal power plants, water treatment, waste management, compositing, etc., and the fuel would be sent off to be distributed through fuel stations just as it is now.…

It is difficult to get hard numbers, but probably the limiting resource is the energy in form of electricity, not the availability of carbon dioxide. So, if this is a good idea, the producing plant should be near a cheap electricity plant.