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I Hope the Supreme Court finds the Affordable Care Act Unconstitutional

merricklozano.com

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Re: I Hope the Supreme Court finds the Affordable Care Act Unconstitutional

#21

Post by jfoutz »

merrick wrote: post #16
jfoutz wrote: post #6

Your friend is doing it wrong. Instead of shelling out 17k/year, get a 5k deductible policy, and pay for the doctor visits yourself. put the 5-10k you save per year in some sort of investment you can get at when you really have to. Something like an index fund if you're young, or bonds if you're older.

Those 5k deductible policies still cost $500 a month for family in a small group and leave you really exposed to 15k per person (max out of pocket) and max 45k out of pocket for the family. That's not inline with what healthcare should cost. An individual may pay $75 for that same policy but still have exposure of around 15k per year max out of pocket. The HSA plans are just as expensive as middle of the road plans a…

here are some real numbers:

http://www.mrhealthinsurance.net/PDFs/Blue_Cross_Options_Blu...

a 64 year old with a drug problem and 3 kids is looking at 31k a year (worst case, 6k best case).

what, exactly, are you looking to have happen? it's either socialized, where healthy people subsidize the sick, or it's not, or there is some gradient between the two.

I think, right now, you're looking at about 6k/year per person. you can divide that up however you want... billg pays all of it, you pay your own way, or some point on the gradient between the two. regardless, the money has to come from somewhere. I kind of like the obamacare, everybody contributes something model. I think i'd prefer it as a straight up tax, but FREE MARKET IS AMAZING, RAWR, so whatever. that's fine.

edit

or we just let people die. i'm not ok with that.

edit 2

I need to qualify that, this is only for people that aren't poor or old (which medicare and mediaide cover already) or for veterans (which have their own system) or kids (chips it think it's called). this is exclusively for working class kinda folks who never went to war. the other 60% are already covered by socialized medicine.

edit 3

why the hell am i participating in an /r/politics discussion on hn? i'm obviously dumb.

edit 4

Thank you for simply downvoting and not replying. this way, i can go to sleep not worrying you're expecting a reply.

Re: I Hope the Supreme Court finds the Affordable Care Act Unconstitutional

#22

Post by [deleted] »

nextparadigms wrote: post #7
MattLaroche wrote: post #4

What are the chances that if the Affordable Health Care act is found unconstitutional that America gets universal health care in the next decade?

You could always go for the European-style universal healthcare, where the Government pays for everything. You'll need to have higher taxes, though, or cut some of that military/war budget.

[deleted]

Re: I Hope the Supreme Court finds the Affordable Care Act Unconstitutional

#24

Post by MattLaroche »

merrick wrote: post #14
MattLaroche wrote: post #4

What are the chances that if the Affordable Health Care act is found unconstitutional that America gets universal health care in the next decade?

I realize that universal health care is not on the table today, but I do hope we can change that over time.

Honestly, I hope America gets universal healthcare as well. I just don't get "if this is struck down, it'll pave the way for true universal healthcare." I think, logically, that universal healthcare would be more likely without the individual mandate in place. At the same time, politically, this will come as a major blow and be seen as many voters as a court rejection of socialized medicine in the US (even though that's not the conclusion will even draw).

Re: I Hope the Supreme Court finds the Affordable Care Act Unconstitutional

#25

Post by merrick »

MattLaroche wrote: post #24
merrick wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I realize that universal health care is not on the table today, but I do hope we can change that over time.

Honestly, I hope America gets universal healthcare as well. I just don't get "if this is struck down, it'll pave the way for true universal healthcare." I think, logically, that universal healthcare would be more likely without the individual mandate in place. At the same time, politically, this will come as a major blow and be seen as many voters as a court rejection of socialized medicine in the US (even though tha…

It's not paving the way, it's removing an obstacle - this act while weakening insurance companies on one level, makes them much stronger with more guaranteed revenues, thus making their lobby stronger. A stronger insurance lobby would oppose universal health care with more determination.

Re: I Hope the Supreme Court finds the Affordable Care Act Unconstitutional

#26

Post by bunderbunder »

Lazare wrote: post #11
gatlin wrote: post #9

IANAL and I have not read the complete unabridged text of the bill but so far as I can tell the only piece that is likely unconstitutional is the individual mandate, correct? The commerce clause can be very powerful provided commerce is already taking place but I am not aware of precedent allowing it to coerce one into commerce in the first place. Is there such a precedent? Would the existence of such a precedent be…

That's an open question. The legal term is "severability". Sometimes an entire law (or contract) will be struck down if one part is found to be illegal or invalid. Other times just the invalid part will be cut out, and the rest will still be enforced. It can go either way, depending on very specific details of the law (or contract), drafting history, previous precedents, etc. Often, a law (or contract) will contain a…

I rather hope the bill stands or falls as a whole. The individual mandate is one of the lynchpins of the bill. Without it, the bans on annual limits and discrimination against people with pre-existing conditions that are coming in 2014 will probably force premiums to increase considerably. Admittedly there's plenty of good stuff in the act beside all that, but I fear it's still better to lose everything in the bill than it is to lose the individual mandate but not the things that need the individual mandate to be feasible.

Re: I Hope the Supreme Court finds the Affordable Care Act Unconstitutional

#27

Post by Hyena »

Actually, I think the ACA does improve the situation he describes. Small companies, like start-ups, wouldn't be required to purchase health insurance and people whose earnings teeter at the edge of "ramen profitable" would likely be eligible for extensive subsidy.

Re: I Hope the Supreme Court finds the Affordable Care Act Unconstitutional

#28

Post by Kopion »

gatlin wrote: post #8
Kopion wrote: post #3

Healthcare isn't a right. End of story.

If this statement is a fact it will have evidence, and if it is an opinion it will have a justification. A productive discussion will necessarily have one or the other.

Sorry for my lack of a complete argument. I didn't think the Bill of Rights needed to be cited. Here you go: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/rights1.asp#2

Re: I Hope the Supreme Court finds the Affordable Care Act Unconstitutional

#29

Post by webXL »

MattLaroche wrote: post #5
Kopion wrote: post #3

Healthcare isn't a right. End of story.

At the same time, America treats emergency healthcare as a right and then the rest of society pays those bills. It's probably cheaper for people to get care before it gets to the emergency level. It certainly results in better quality of life.

It's probably cheaper... It certainly results in better quality of life.

Why don't we use that rationale to justify complete regulation of food consumption? Let's have the government force all citizens to eat a vegan diet. The economies of scale would certainly make it cheaper to consume. Overall health would improve. And we would all have a better quality of life...

Except for that little word "force". What if I feel like a milkshake today or a nice juicy steak every once in a while? If I can afford it, and it doesn't hurt anyone else (humans at least), I should be free to purchase those things.

When you're required to eat things, or required to pay for things... OR GO TO PRISON, you're not really free anymore, and that's why Americans don't like government programs like ACA or socialized health care. It might make sense on paper and look just like a big insurance pool, but in reality, it looks more like a centrally planned market, where price signals and efficiencies are non-existant, because when your doctor has a guaranteed paycheck from Uncle Sam, he lacks an incentive to make sure you get the best care. When medical students realize that reimbursement rates have dropped to the point that they can't afford to repay their student loan for a very long time, we'll get fewer doctors, or standards will drop.

I'd rather pay a little bit extra for poor people to get free care than to force me into a one-size fits all plan with long wait times for special procedures. Let's at least fix the problem of poor people not being able to afford a decent level of care before we force everyone into a one-size fits all government program with promises it can't keep, like Social Security and Medicare.

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