Forty years of GNU and the free software movement • Hacker News Board

Re: Forty years of GNU and the free software movement

#21

Post by globular-toast » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 8:37 AM UTC

red_admiral wrote: post #12

noufalibrahim wrote: post #6

My earliest exposure to free software was via. GCC and Emacs. The early debates on Gnu/Linux, OSS vs. Free Software etc. were all things I imbibed back then. The ideological stand of the FSF was appealing to me when I was younger and really affected my outlook. Over the years, I can't help but feeling that while the FSF's core message is still relevant and true, their tactics have more or less pushed them outside of…

There is free as in apache/BSD/MIT, and free as in GPL. In many parts of industry, going the "purist" route and putting your library under GPL is a sure way to make sure no-one will use it (the LGPL doesn't completely solve this problem either). Whereas more pragmatic approaches to free software have absolutely taken off. Big names like React, Angular etc. are MIT licensed, for example. It's like the FSF invented "fr…

It's more like "free 0.5", not "free 2.0". MIT and other permissive licences are basically "free more me, but maybe not for you". There is only one possible reason that you want to reserve the right to restrict the freedom of others: you plan to restrict the freedom of others.

Individual freedom is easy. The King has always been free to do as he wishes. It's freedom for the entire community now and forever that matters.

Re: Forty years of GNU and the free software movement

#22

Post by pipo234 » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 8:37 AM UTC

orthoxerox wrote: post #16

red_admiral wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is free as in apache/BSD/MIT, and free as in GPL. In many parts of industry, going the "purist" route and putting your library under GPL is a sure way to make sure no-one will use it (the LGPL doesn't completely solve this problem either). Whereas more pragmatic approaches to free software have absolutely taken off. Big names like React, Angular etc. are MIT licensed, for example. It's like the FSF invented "fr…

And now we're moving to "free 3.0" (aka screw you Amazon), which is more restrictive than MIT or GPL.

There are a lot of issues with FSF's perspective and the way they were written down. Running GNU derivative in a proprietary cloud is one of them. RedHat (in)ability to make a fair profit is another. Still Google's Linux "theft" led to more openness in Android than Apple's BSD Unix rip off.

Regardless of the license chosen, sustainability of open source is a problem. (I'm still baffled by the absence of government sponsoring; why do governments around the globe continue to spend billions on proprietary IT infrastructure, databases, and desktop computers?!)

Not sure if yet another license is the answer, but yes we could do with a new model of what "free" and openness entails.

Re: Forty years of GNU and the free software movement

#23

Post by pjmlp » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 8:38 AM UTC

red_admiral wrote: post #12

noufalibrahim wrote: post #6

My earliest exposure to free software was via. GCC and Emacs. The early debates on Gnu/Linux, OSS vs. Free Software etc. were all things I imbibed back then. The ideological stand of the FSF was appealing to me when I was younger and really affected my outlook. Over the years, I can't help but feeling that while the FSF's core message is still relevant and true, their tactics have more or less pushed them outside of…

There is free as in apache/BSD/MIT, and free as in GPL. In many parts of industry, going the "purist" route and putting your library under GPL is a sure way to make sure no-one will use it (the LGPL doesn't completely solve this problem either). Whereas more pragmatic approaches to free software have absolutely taken off. Big names like React, Angular etc. are MIT licensed, for example. It's like the FSF invented "fr…

MIT predates GNU.

GNU only took off due to AT&T wanting back the money they weren't allowed to charge for UNIX during its early lifetime, thus BSD uncertain future.

Re: Forty years of GNU and the free software movement

#24

Post by pjmlp » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 8:39 AM UTC

aerhq3h5 wrote: post #14

p-e-w wrote: post #11

If by some sequence of miracles society manages to avoid the seemingly inevitable slide into a techno-totalitarian future, there is no doubt that Free Software will be what makes that possible. I consider it quite likely that Stallman and Torvalds will eventually be viewed as two of the most influential individuals in human history, at least on par with Marx and Engels, but arguably even more important, provided thei…

Without meaning to be overly pessimistic, why would it be so certain that such salvation would come from GNU and the free software movement? The most common operating system in peoples' day-to-day computers is Android which is effectively Linux without GNU bundled in.

And even the Linux kernel might one day be changed for Zirkon.

Re: Forty years of GNU and the free software movement

#25

Post by severus_snape » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 8:41 AM UTC

red_admiral wrote: post #12

noufalibrahim wrote: post #6

My earliest exposure to free software was via. GCC and Emacs. The early debates on Gnu/Linux, OSS vs. Free Software etc. were all things I imbibed back then. The ideological stand of the FSF was appealing to me when I was younger and really affected my outlook. Over the years, I can't help but feeling that while the FSF's core message is still relevant and true, their tactics have more or less pushed them outside of…

There is free as in apache/BSD/MIT, and free as in GPL. In many parts of industry, going the "purist" route and putting your library under GPL is a sure way to make sure no-one will use it (the LGPL doesn't completely solve this problem either). Whereas more pragmatic approaches to free software have absolutely taken off. Big names like React, Angular etc. are MIT licensed, for example. It's like the FSF invented "fr…

Let's see 20 years from now which of React, Angular and Linux is still around.

Re: Forty years of GNU and the free software movement

#26

Post by yvdriess » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 8:41 AM UTC

blueflow wrote: post #18

red_admiral wrote: post #10

I have mixed feelings about this anniversary. RMS is both the reason that the free software movement is where it is today, and the reason that it has so few women involved. If we could turn back the clock, I wish we could keep the good parts but leave out the bad parts.

> and the reason that it has so few women involved It is repeated and repeated again that because there aren't as many women as men in IT, there must be some kind of badness going on. I offer a more charitable explanation: Women don't want to, the same way Men don't want to go to yoga courses. No badness involved, just people making their decisions.

The problem with that explanation is that in the past, there were a lot more women in computing. First as operators and programmer/mathematicians, later the gender mix was following the same upward trend as other sciences.

I've seen two explanations for the dearth of women in computing: engineering culture becoming dominant in the '60s (where it was more the domain of mathematics before) and the rise of personal computers that were advertised and marketed to young boys in the '80s. The latter is very noticeable in CS enrollment numbers.

Re: Forty years of GNU and the free software movement

#27

Post by safety1st » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 8:43 AM UTC

red_admiral wrote: post #10

I have mixed feelings about this anniversary. RMS is both the reason that the free software movement is where it is today, and the reason that it has so few women involved. If we could turn back the clock, I wish we could keep the good parts but leave out the bad parts.

RMS has been subjected to a defamatory smear campaign which has falsely accused him of being transphobic, sympathetic to pedophiles and hostile to women. The attacks targeting him have largely come from people who aren't involved in free software and in some cases not even involved in the tech industry. While his behavior has been awkward at times he is absolutely none of these things and he deserves respect for his contributions to our field.

Please read:

https://stallmansupport.org/richard-stallman-is-not-transpho... - Leah Rowe, who accused the FSF of being transphobic, defending Richard Stallman as not transphobic.

https://stallmansupport.org/nadine-strossen-hannah-wolfman-r... - Nadine Strossen, former President of the ACLU and a feminist icon, affirming Richard Stallman's support for women and her support for many of his positions.

Re: Forty years of GNU and the free software movement

#28

Post by grumbel » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 8:43 AM UTC

noufalibrahim wrote: post #6

My earliest exposure to free software was via. GCC and Emacs. The early debates on Gnu/Linux, OSS vs. Free Software etc. were all things I imbibed back then. The ideological stand of the FSF was appealing to me when I was younger and really affected my outlook. Over the years, I can't help but feeling that while the FSF's core message is still relevant and true, their tactics have more or less pushed them outside of…

The issue for me is more that the FSF hasn't kept up with what is happening in technology. Software these days is often a secondary concern, as you aren't the one owning the computer, instead it is all running remotely and it's really about the data and control of said data. The licenses the FSF offers, including the AGPL, are inadequate to address this.

Over in Europe we got the GDPR, which does actually address a lot of data related issues quite well. But as far as Free Software licenses go, there still isn't any equivalent or even much discussion on how to attack the problem in the first place.

FSF feels stuck in solving 1980s problems, while having little to say about 2020s problems. "Don't do it", "self-host" or "run locally" doesn't cut it when a lot of software fundamentally has to be distributed in some fashion.

Re: Forty years of GNU and the free software movement

#29

Post by SSLy » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 8:43 AM UTC

severus_snape wrote: post #25

red_admiral wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is free as in apache/BSD/MIT, and free as in GPL. In many parts of industry, going the "purist" route and putting your library under GPL is a sure way to make sure no-one will use it (the LGPL doesn't completely solve this problem either). Whereas more pragmatic approaches to free software have absolutely taken off. Big names like React, Angular etc. are MIT licensed, for example. It's like the FSF invented "fr…

Let's see 20 years from now which of React, Angular and Linux is still around.

With the non-enforcement of the license (see vmware, various chinese companies), Linux kernel is de facto MIT, yes.

Re: Forty years of GNU and the free software movement

#30

Post by tannhaeuser » Tue, Sep 19, 2023, 8:44 AM UTC

red_admiral wrote: post #10

I have mixed feelings about this anniversary. RMS is both the reason that the free software movement is where it is today, and the reason that it has so few women involved. If we could turn back the clock, I wish we could keep the good parts but leave out the bad parts.

Another interpretation in pre-classic critical gender theory might be that only men have reason to strive for compensating their lack of ability to give birth by a F/OSS magnus opus. Or idk Freudian or even pre-Freudian suppression of sex drive, possibly for later, more intense pleasure?

Oh, and we don't say "women" anymore, preferring gender-neutral language.

Meanwhile, F/OSS zealots are busy subliming (^1) on github, bringing their tickets and clicks and those of their users, as generative and advanced AI takes over CompSci (what has been left by the attention economy anyway).

Seriously, today's problem is more that F/OSS is being used to exploit users and form monopolies. "Cloud providers" and other capital-intense approaches only exist as a direct reaction to F/OSS abundance.

^1: in memoriam of Iain Banks who died ten years ago