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Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

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Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#21

Post by giantg2 »

infecto wrote: post #8
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #5

Tech workers are usually so buried, heads hunched over the keyboard, focused on the latest project, that they aren't even aware they are being used. They straiten their back one day, look around, and realize they've been working for 20 years and getting nowhere. They got good enough raises, but forgot inflation, and it was really nothing.

In what country? Software engineers have some incredible pay for pretty low effort in the last 15years. Even before that it was a pretty decent living for most of the time pretty non-unique software. We are talking about them as an exploited working class, wild to me.

Given that they are typically salaried, I wonder what the hour adjusted pay is? The median for a dev in the US is $110k, and many of those jobs fall in higher than average cost of living areas.

It's possible that people in the industry want better working conditions or more equal/open pay systems, not just more money. Better hiring practices could be nice too.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#22

Post by alphazard »

Don't unions work best in fields where quality is very uniform and expertise counts for very little? I'm thinking about low skilled jobs that can be mastered in months or years. Unions create salary progression, and benefits for seniority where there is otherwise no reason for them to exist. When no one does anything better than anyone else, it makes sense to negotiate as a block, individuals have no power.

Now compare that to tech where the 80/20 rule is patently obvious to anyone in the field. The best engineers are worth literally 10x the worst engineers, but often get paid only 2-3x as much. 20% of the field, with 80% of the negotiating power, wants employers to find better and better ways to pay proportional to value-add, not to increase the floor salary, or working conditions across the board.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#24

Post by pc86 »

jandrewrogers wrote: post #17
badcppdev wrote: post #6

I guess the trouble is that we don't have any self-admitted exploited workers. Everyone is a temporarily embarrassed Founder/CTO. With thanks to Steinback - https://hellyesjohnsteinbeck.tumblr.com/post/23486952183/com...

At least in the US, the average software developer does eventually become a millionaire, working a pretty cushy job. If that is "exploitation" then most people would be like to be exploited like that.

The average software developer makes $110k/yr, and there's a clear differentiation between having a million dollars (or millions) in your 20s and 30s compared to retiring with $2-3 million in a 401k that you need to live off of for four decades.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#25

Post by marcinzm »

kdmccormick wrote: post #19
infecto wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what country? Software engineers have some incredible pay for pretty low effort in the last 15years. Even before that it was a pretty decent living for most of the time pretty non-unique software. We are talking about them as an exploited working class, wild to me.

IMHO our profession's adherence to ethics and technical standards is shockingly low compared to others. If a civil engineer was asked to build a bridge that will probably be unsafe, I think they and their colleagues would have the power to refuse (right?). If a software engineer is asked to ship a feature that's probably insecure then... IDK, gotta get it to prod, move fast and break things, right? I wonder if unioni…

Your civil engineer would also end up in jail or bared from working in the area if they made a mistake and has pretty strict criteria for becoming a civil engineer.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#26

Post by salil999 »

giantg2 wrote: post #21
infecto wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what country? Software engineers have some incredible pay for pretty low effort in the last 15years. Even before that it was a pretty decent living for most of the time pretty non-unique software. We are talking about them as an exploited working class, wild to me.

Given that they are typically salaried, I wonder what the hour adjusted pay is? The median for a dev in the US is $110k, and many of those jobs fall in higher than average cost of living areas. It's possible that people in the industry want better working conditions or more equal/open pay systems, not just more money. Better hiring practices could be nice too.

The problem with looking at hourly pay is that I don't feel it applies well to the software industry. I can easily say there are some weeks where I have little to nothing to do and there are other weeks where I'm working a full day every day of the week.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#27

Post by tourmalinetaco »

infecto wrote: post #8
FrustratedMonky wrote: post #5

Tech workers are usually so buried, heads hunched over the keyboard, focused on the latest project, that they aren't even aware they are being used. They straiten their back one day, look around, and realize they've been working for 20 years and getting nowhere. They got good enough raises, but forgot inflation, and it was really nothing.

In what country? Software engineers have some incredible pay for pretty low effort in the last 15years. Even before that it was a pretty decent living for most of the time pretty non-unique software. We are talking about them as an exploited working class, wild to me.

Even in countries like India programmers make salaries in the multiples of the average (checking around on Payscale I see the average is around ₹60k, while programmers make on average ₹460k).

Sometimes programmers can have it rough, but that’s entirely their decision to stay. As a programmer you have unparalleled movement; the post-lockdown WFH standard and ability to code from basically any device show that readily. Combine that flexibility with high pay and long term career prospects and it shows that anyone begging for a union doesn’t understand what real working class struggles are.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#28

Post by marcinzm »

giantg2 wrote: post #21
infecto wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what country? Software engineers have some incredible pay for pretty low effort in the last 15years. Even before that it was a pretty decent living for most of the time pretty non-unique software. We are talking about them as an exploited working class, wild to me.

Given that they are typically salaried, I wonder what the hour adjusted pay is? The median for a dev in the US is $110k, and many of those jobs fall in higher than average cost of living areas. It's possible that people in the industry want better working conditions or more equal/open pay systems, not just more money. Better hiring practices could be nice too.

The issue is that everyone wants something different and no one ever agrees.

Re: Tech Workers Deserve a Union: An Interview with Ethan Marcotte

#30

Post by tourmalinetaco »

kdmccormick wrote: post #19
infecto wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what country? Software engineers have some incredible pay for pretty low effort in the last 15years. Even before that it was a pretty decent living for most of the time pretty non-unique software. We are talking about them as an exploited working class, wild to me.

IMHO our profession's adherence to ethics and technical standards is shockingly low compared to others. If a civil engineer was asked to build a bridge that will probably be unsafe, I think they and their colleagues would have the power to refuse (right?). If a software engineer is asked to ship a feature that's probably insecure then... IDK, gotta get it to prod, move fast and break things, right? I wonder if unioni…

This sounds like more of an argument for a software safety commission than for a union.
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