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Wedding Photographer Spent a Year in Jail After Pleading the Fifth

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Re: Wedding Photographer Spent a Year in Jail After Pleading the Fifth

#21

Post by Williams565 »

redeeman wrote: post #17
ethanbond wrote: post #6

The guy happened to be a photographer, but his being subpoenaed and held in contempt had to do with him refusing to testify against his corrupt DEA brother. He “pled the Fifth” to avoid, in his own words, testifying against his brother, which is not what the 5th Amendment protects. His lawyer claimed he was pleading the 5th to prevent accidentally perjuring himself, but there’s no such thing as accidentally perjuring…

> Prosecutors have to prove you willfully and knowingly told a falsehood. No, they have to make someone else believe you did. How else would this burden of proof be lifted? some form of brain scan that can just say "yeah, he willfully did it!"? no, they put fourth some motive/set of circumstances, and if a bunch of people believe the spin, its "proved"

[dead]

Re: Wedding Photographer Spent a Year in Jail After Pleading the Fifth

#24

Post by jvanderbot »

tarxvf wrote: post #5
fatfingerd wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He doesn't have the right to plead the 5th to avoid testifying against anyone but himself or his spouse, so his attempts to plead the 5th were just nonsense. Making an issue now seems to me like the "justice" connected criminals he was protecting by his contempt are somehow more worthy of rights than everyone they have used this tool on.

One always has the right to remain silent, for any reason. Compelled speech is immoral. (And rights do not come from the government) The people telling you otherwise are not interested in protecting you or anyone else.

You have the right to remain silent during questioning outside court. By the way have you seen how far this has degraded? You can't remain silent until you say you are remaining silent explicitly by claiming this right.

But, I'm not sure you have the right to not speak in court when called to testify.

Re: Wedding Photographer Spent a Year in Jail After Pleading the Fifth

#25

Post by wmil »

> It is worth noting that the DOJ defines perjury as a declarant “willfully” making a false statement, that the declarant believed that what they were saying was untrue, and that the statement was related to a material fact. Misremembering a detail is not, in and of itself, perjury.

The prosecutors and judges have a lot of leeway with assuming "willfully". Plenty of people have been convicted because a prosecutor wanted to apply pressure / make an example and choose to believe an incorrect date was a willful lie.

Re: Wedding Photographer Spent a Year in Jail After Pleading the Fifth

#27

Post by TillE »

jvanderbot wrote: post #23
sinuhe69 wrote: post #22

If not the 5A, on what can one use to refuse to testify in court? The law can not compel you to help the government investigate somebody, right?

Oh I believe they can. Isn't it called a supoena?

Yes. I mean, that's the whole point of that part of the fifth amendment. There would be no need for an explicit carveout of self-incrimination if the government didn't have the general ability to compel witnesses to testify.

Re: Wedding Photographer Spent a Year in Jail After Pleading the Fifth

#28

Post by simple-thoughts »

ethanbond wrote: post #20
redeeman wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Prosecutors have to prove you willfully and knowingly told a falsehood. No, they have to make someone else believe you did. How else would this burden of proof be lifted? some form of brain scan that can just say "yeah, he willfully did it!"? no, they put fourth some motive/set of circumstances, and if a bunch of people believe the spin, its "proved"

Good point! If you are under oath don’t give testimony that your average juror would take to be a willful and knowing lie.

Jurors by definition aren’t the brightest, since they don’t know how to get out of jury duty.

Re: Wedding Photographer Spent a Year in Jail After Pleading the Fifth

#29

Post by ethanbond »

simple-thoughts wrote: post #28
ethanbond wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point! If you are under oath don’t give testimony that your average juror would take to be a willful and knowing lie.

Jurors by definition aren’t the brightest, since they don’t know how to get out of jury duty.

Factor that into your deception/truth-telling calculation if and how you want

Re: Wedding Photographer Spent a Year in Jail After Pleading the Fifth

#30

Post by ethanbond »

TillE wrote: post #27
jvanderbot wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh I believe they can. Isn't it called a supoena?

Yes. I mean, that's the whole point of that part of the fifth amendment. There would be no need for an explicit carveout of self-incrimination if the government didn't have the general ability to compel witnesses to testify.

Exactly. I suppose in some sense you have to admire America’s ability to produce people who believe the government has ~zero authority.

“The government can’t possibly do [basic function of every government since dawn of tribal life], can it?”

Yes indeed it can.

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