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To opt out of Grammarly AI training requires business account with 500+ users

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Re: To opt out of Grammarly AI training requires business account with 500+ users

#21

Post by joe__f »

slavboj wrote: post #14

Grammarly is an extremely obvious intelligence cutout masquerading as a company. Their entire business model is getting employees insecure about their English skills to dump sensitive government and business documents into their service without their employer's knowledge. They were founded in and keep multinational offices in intelligence laundering hotspots so the Americans can claim to have received tips from the G…

I think they cater mostly to people whose first language is not English. Maybe they are still keeping intelligence on those people, but there is a legitimate need there

Re: To opt out of Grammarly AI training requires business account with 500+ users

#22

Post by arcticpeanuts »

PheonixPharts wrote: post #10

Kinda chisels away at their official "We're not a keylogger!" argument: > Is Grammarly a keylogger? > No. A keylogger records every keystroke, sends data to a third party for the benefit of that party , and does so without the user’s knowledge. Grammarly’s product doesn’t fit any of these descriptions. [0]. Certainly the data being sent must be primarily for their own benefit. Clearly if it was for the benefit of the…

Is Grammarly a third party when you interact with them or their product? And they don't actually record the data without the user's knowledge, do they?

They might not be a keylogger by their own definition, but everyone can design a definition like that: a thief steals stuff, gives it to a third party for the benefit of that party, and does so without the users's knowledge.

Re: To opt out of Grammarly AI training requires business account with 500+ users

#23

Post by verve_rat »

FormerBandmate wrote: post #20
slavboj wrote: post #14

Grammarly is an extremely obvious intelligence cutout masquerading as a company. Their entire business model is getting employees insecure about their English skills to dump sensitive government and business documents into their service without their employer's knowledge. They were founded in and keep multinational offices in intelligence laundering hotspots so the Americans can claim to have received tips from the G…

That doesn’t make any sense. Everyone used it in high school and college, they’re very heavily targeted to education. If anything, Microsoft Editor (which is on by default) would be an tool of intelligence because we already know Microsoft participated in PRISM, but that’s boring and too unstoppable

Because education is where you get people hooked as life long users?

Re: To opt out of Grammarly AI training requires business account with 500+ users

#24

Post by sshine »

arcticpeanuts wrote: post #22
PheonixPharts wrote: post #10

Kinda chisels away at their official "We're not a keylogger!" argument: > Is Grammarly a keylogger? > No. A keylogger records every keystroke, sends data to a third party for the benefit of that party , and does so without the user’s knowledge. Grammarly’s product doesn’t fit any of these descriptions. [0]. Certainly the data being sent must be primarily for their own benefit. Clearly if it was for the benefit of the…

Is Grammarly a third party when you interact with them or their product? And they don't actually record the data without the user's knowledge, do they? They might not be a keylogger by their own definition, but everyone can design a definition like that: a thief steals stuff, gives it to a third party for the benefit of that party, and does so without the users's knowledge.

Robin Hood wasn't a thief by his own accord, because he steals openly and gives it to the poor.

Grammarly aren't keylogging by their own accord, because they tell you they're doing it, and they keep the data to themselves.

Still, I feel robbed.

Re: To opt out of Grammarly AI training requires business account with 500+ users

#25

Post by joshspankit »

PheonixPharts wrote: post #10

Kinda chisels away at their official "We're not a keylogger!" argument: > Is Grammarly a keylogger? > No. A keylogger records every keystroke, sends data to a third party for the benefit of that party , and does so without the user’s knowledge. Grammarly’s product doesn’t fit any of these descriptions. [0]. Certainly the data being sent must be primarily for their own benefit. Clearly if it was for the benefit of the…

A keylogger

1. records every keystroke

This is a new distinction to me. So a macOS program that can record everything except specific password fields (due to the OS protections) can’t be called a keylogger?

2. sends data to a third party for the benefit of that party

Again a weird distinction. Grammarly is a 3rd party to it’s users when they watch the interaction between those users and the web form they are using, and are they saying that they have no partnerships with other companies?

3. does so without the user’s knowledge

This might be the only one I agree with, but even then it’s with caveats. If I as an employer tell my employees that there is software installed to record every keystroke, does that exclude it from being called a keylogger? Probably not. If I do it regardless of informing them and do the same thing with the data, does it particularly matter whether they have knowledge of it? Morally I’d also say probably not.

Does it really “not fit any of these descriptions”? I’d say it does.

Re: To opt out of Grammarly AI training requires business account with 500+ users

#26

Post by bithavoc »

lumost wrote: post #2

I kinda hate this, but it also seems like the only way to keep Grammarly in business. I've paid them for a personal account since 2016, since ChatGPT's launch - my usage has fallen precipitously. I can write utter stream of consciousness garbage, paste it into GPT-4, and get out a professional looking piece of text. I'd definitely pay for a private AI assisted writing experience - the biggest blocker I have with usin…

I pay for Notion which includes AI for docs and includes grammar corrections. Weird times

Re: To opt out of Grammarly AI training requires business account with 500+ users

#27

Post by sockaddr »

joshspankit wrote: post #25
PheonixPharts wrote: post #10

Kinda chisels away at their official "We're not a keylogger!" argument: > Is Grammarly a keylogger? > No. A keylogger records every keystroke, sends data to a third party for the benefit of that party , and does so without the user’s knowledge. Grammarly’s product doesn’t fit any of these descriptions. [0]. Certainly the data being sent must be primarily for their own benefit. Clearly if it was for the benefit of the…

A keylogger 1. records every keystroke This is a new distinction to me. So a macOS program that can record everything except specific password fields (due to the OS protections) can’t be called a keylogger? 2. sends data to a third party for the benefit of that party Again a weird distinction. Grammarly is a 3rd party to it’s users when they watch the interaction between those users and the web form they are using, a…

It’s an argument tactic that works on people who need precompiled opinions.

Redefine something in a very qualified way that maneuvers around the issue and that a non-thinking person wouldn’t notice and then say “see! A =! B” and the non-thinking person accepts that new fact and is now accepting of your broader argument.

People who use grammarly are commoditizing themselves and they’re too dumb to notice.

Re: To opt out of Grammarly AI training requires business account with 500+ users

#28

Post by JohnFen »

sockaddr wrote: post #27
joshspankit wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A keylogger 1. records every keystroke This is a new distinction to me. So a macOS program that can record everything except specific password fields (due to the OS protections) can’t be called a keylogger? 2. sends data to a third party for the benefit of that party Again a weird distinction. Grammarly is a 3rd party to it’s users when they watch the interaction between those users and the web form they are using, a…

It’s an argument tactic that works on people who need precompiled opinions. Redefine something in a very qualified way that maneuvers around the issue and that a non-thinking person wouldn’t notice and then say “see! A =! B” and the non-thinking person accepts that new fact and is now accepting of your broader argument. People who use grammarly are commoditizing themselves and they’re too dumb to notice.

Yeah, their argument is a bit ridiculous.

I use keyloggers on my own machines sometimes. I'm a first party, not third, and I've fully disclosed to myself that I'm using them. I've even obtained 100% informed consent for the activity.

But they're still keyloggers.

Re: To opt out of Grammarly AI training requires business account with 500+ users

#29

Post by JohnFen »

lumost wrote: post #2

I kinda hate this, but it also seems like the only way to keep Grammarly in business. I've paid them for a personal account since 2016, since ChatGPT's launch - my usage has fallen precipitously. I can write utter stream of consciousness garbage, paste it into GPT-4, and get out a professional looking piece of text. I'd definitely pay for a private AI assisted writing experience - the biggest blocker I have with usin…

> it also seems like the only way to keep Grammarly in business.

If that's true, then it raises the serious question of whether they should stay in business.

Re: To opt out of Grammarly AI training requires business account with 500+ users

#30

Post by Vocalize4754 »

I’m on the security team at Grammarly, and our CISO addressed this here on Mastodon: https://infosec.exchange/@suha/110860810624160582. Copying his response below for viz:

When it comes to our genAI features, we use Microsoft Azure as our LLM provider and don’t allow Azure, or any third party, to use our customers’ data to train their models—this is contractually mandated. For text analyzed by Grammarly to provide revision suggestions (like adjusting tone or making text more concise), we may retain randomly sampled, anonymized, and de-identified data to improve the product. This data is disassociated from user accounts and ONLY used in aggregate.

We’ve devoted a ton of time and resources to developing methods that ensure the training data is anonymized and de-identified. And any Grammarly user (Free, Premium, Business) can view the data associated with their account by requesting a personal data report from us.

Re: opt-out: When we go through a security review with a business, if requested, that business can completely opt out of Grammarly training on their de-identified and anonymized data—opt-out is not limited to a 500+ license size.

We don’t skimp on security or responsible data practices at Grammarly. We have strict enterprise-grade controls to protect customer data—restricted access, encryption, audit logging, and more. These are backed by industry-standard certifications like SOC 2 (Type 2), HIPAA, and ISO and verified and audited by industry-leading third parties.

More on what we do is at https://grammarly.com/trust.

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