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Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

arstechnica.com

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Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#21

Post by MBCook »

ChrisClark wrote: post #12
MBCook wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically every other EV tries to give a realistic range based on the temperate and your driving habits. Teslas appear to always show the EPA range at full and it sounds like they stay very optimistic for quite a long time, giving drivers a very unrealistic picture. That’s lying to the customer. They’re not trying to be useful but to look good. And in every EV range comparison I’ve ever seen, teslas are the ones that…

If you want the accurate range prediction, navigate to somewhere, the prediction is always spot on to the percent. Or view the energy screen, also extremely accurate. Just don't depend on the EPA range, go with what the car calculates when you navigate and you will never have an issue.

All that says to me is the car knows how to calculate that, which undermines Tesla’s position in my mind. Otherwise they’d use the EPA range everywhere.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#22

Post by adolph »

HappySweeney wrote: post #10

I almost bought one about 5 years ago, and I'm glad I didn't. If I had, I would be upset if I wasn't able to simply return the car for a full refund, subscription features included, instead of what, $50? in any class action payout.

The class action payout will be more substantial than $50. Think something very valuable like an entire year of credit monitoring or $500 off your next purchase of a qualified Tesla automobile.

  * Some restrictions apply; not valid in CA, MT, AK; must take delivery of existing stock; not valid with other rebates and discounts; value of coupon reported as income to IRS....

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#23

Post by jackmott42 »

Analemma_ wrote: post #14

Tesla's display shows the EPA range. While this is probably a bad idea and that's why no other manufacturer does it, "nobody else does it" is nothing but an informal standard and it seems a bit awkward to claim the approved government standard, in use at government agencies, is so obviously wrong that it constitutes fraud.

Tesla display that but also displays highly accurate estimates of any trip you plan. To me the real party at fault with EV range in the USA is the EPA, which combines city and highway range in a single number, which inflates the highway number. Every EV that is sold advertises this inflated EPA number. Nobody cares about city range, just publish highway range, or both, like we do with gas cars.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#24

Post by Kirby64 »

MBCook wrote: post #6
constantcrying wrote: post #3

Seems like a pretty weak claim to be honest. I think it is pretty obvious that maximum range refers to maxium range under ideal conditions and that using more eletronics in the car reduces the range. Porsche isn't lying about their max speed either, just because you can't reach it with 300kg of load and bad weather.

Basically every other EV tries to give a realistic range based on the temperate and your driving habits. Teslas appear to always show the EPA range at full and it sounds like they stay very optimistic for quite a long time, giving drivers a very unrealistic picture. That’s lying to the customer. They’re not trying to be useful but to look good. And in every EV range comparison I’ve ever seen, teslas are the ones that…

https://insideevs.com/reviews/443791/ev-range-test-results/

Take a look for yourself. EPA range vs a "real world" test is all over the place depending on vendor, and even depending on the car. Rivian, Kia, Nissan all have ranges that are under by similar percentages as Tesla. Only Porsche seems to heavily sandbag here.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#25

Post by jackmott42 »

constantcrying wrote: post #3

Seems like a pretty weak claim to be honest. I think it is pretty obvious that maximum range refers to maxium range under ideal conditions and that using more eletronics in the car reduces the range. Porsche isn't lying about their max speed either, just because you can't reach it with 300kg of load and bad weather.

No, the indicated range is no maximum range under ideal conditions! Its just a mix of city and highway driving, which is better than pure highway driving.

If you did ONLY low speed city driving you would do even better!

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#26

Post by asynchronous »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #17
kneel wrote: post #9

You can get close to EPA estimate if you drive the speed limit and avoid aggressive acceleration, something that almost no one does.

The EPA estimate is for 55mph driving in optimal conditions, and is fairly accurate in my experience. It's very easy to exceed EPA estimates in the city. The optimal speed to drive a Tesla is about 15mph. At that speed a Tesla will exceed EPA range by about 20%.

I saw a YouTube video where some guys “maximalised” the range to see how far they could go on one charge, and by reducing weight and disabling cabin AC and going under 25 mph were able to travel I think over 600 miles. Good to know in a pinch.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#27

Post by heattemp99 »

mplewis wrote: post #20
ChrisClark wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want the accurate range prediction, navigate to somewhere, the prediction is always spot on to the percent. Or view the energy screen, also extremely accurate. Just don't depend on the EPA range, go with what the car calculates when you navigate and you will never have an issue.

So the car only lies to you about its capabilities in some contexts? That's reassuring.

The car is optimistic in general, if you drove at city speeds on flat land. But if you tell it exactly where you're going, it calculates based on the route required. If you started at the top of a mountain pass, the more accurate range would actually show MORE miles than the general gauge. "Omg, Tesla is under promising range now!!"

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#28

Post by MBCook »

Analemma_ wrote: post #14

Tesla's display shows the EPA range. While this is probably a bad idea and that's why no other manufacturer does it, "nobody else does it" is nothing but an informal standard and it seems a bit awkward to claim the approved government standard, in use at government agencies, is so obviously wrong that it constitutes fraud.

Clearly Tesla knew the EPA range isn’t what customers commonly got in the real world. They’re famous for all their telematics.

If an example car can achieve 700 miles on the EPA test, but normal usage averages 150, is it fraud to advertise 700? To show 700 on the screen at full charge?

I agree it’s an interesting question. If the difference was 5% I’m not sure people would care. But at 25% off I think it is a very a fair question.

Porsche reportedly tends to outperform its EPA number significantly. They chose to lower it (a choice automakers have) to provide a more realistic picture given their customers seem more likely to use the performance at the cost of raw range.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#29

Post by MBCook »

jackmott42 wrote: post #23
Analemma_ wrote: post #14

Tesla's display shows the EPA range. While this is probably a bad idea and that's why no other manufacturer does it, "nobody else does it" is nothing but an informal standard and it seems a bit awkward to claim the approved government standard, in use at government agencies, is so obviously wrong that it constitutes fraud.

Tesla display that but also displays highly accurate estimates of any trip you plan. To me the real party at fault with EV range in the USA is the EPA, which combines city and highway range in a single number, which inflates the highway number. Every EV that is sold advertises this inflated EPA number. Nobody cares about city range, just publish highway range, or both, like we do with gas cars.

There are two tests you can run for the EPA. What I’ve heard is one favors EVs more and only Tesla uses those numbers for their EVs.

I agree the test needs a redesign. No one drives 55, and speed has a big impact on EVs due to wind resistance.

Re: Tesla committed fraud by “grossly” exaggerating EV range, class action says

#30

Post by redserk »

dragontamer wrote: post #5
constantcrying wrote: post #3

Seems like a pretty weak claim to be honest. I think it is pretty obvious that maximum range refers to maxium range under ideal conditions and that using more eletronics in the car reduces the range. Porsche isn't lying about their max speed either, just because you can't reach it with 300kg of load and bad weather.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/07/tesla-exaggerate... Hypothetical Porsche didn't setup customer service teams to lie to customers on a mass-scale when the complaints came in though. We have evidence of Tesla service-cancellation teams. We have evidence of Tesla's software purposefully being inaccurate when above 50% charge, and then slowly becoming more accurate when reaching 50% or less charge. This is li…

I've worked tech support at a couple of different organizations early in my career. It does not seem at all unusual to create a team dedicated to a particular class of issue so other support staff can focus on a broader range of issues.
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