Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging • Hacker News Board

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#21

Post by orangepurple » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 6:20 PM UTC

j_walter wrote: post #13

kelnos wrote: post #5

https://archive.is/rznQr We've plainly seen over the past several decades that the War on Drugs is an abject failure. All it's done is increase incarceration rates (without solving the problems of drug use and addiction), and many people caught in the system are just drug users, not distributors/traffickers. This really doesn't help much of anything. > State leaders have acknowledged faults with the policy’s implemen…

Clearly they had the best of intentions, but Oregon's politicians are terrible at implementing anything properly. Open drug markets, increased property and retail thefts and a homeless population explosion are what happened...when They always claimed to follow other successful implementations like Portugal, but the law was no where near what they implemented as far as requiring treatment. Whats funny is the Governor…

I disagree that the implementation is terrible. Having seen several interviews on the matter I think its implemented exactly as the people of Portland wanted it. The major outstanding problem is a lot of the homeless people on drugs need someone to genuinely be there for them and care about them. That's the primary message you will hear from them if you care to listen to their stories on The Soft White Underbelly. It seems that you can't possibly spend enough money to make that happen at a policy level. There were horrible abuses in the institutions where it was tried here historically.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#22

Post by Supermancho » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 6:21 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #15

kelnos wrote: post #5

https://archive.is/rznQr We've plainly seen over the past several decades that the War on Drugs is an abject failure. All it's done is increase incarceration rates (without solving the problems of drug use and addiction), and many people caught in the system are just drug users, not distributors/traffickers. This really doesn't help much of anything. > State leaders have acknowledged faults with the policy’s implemen…

Is it possible the probability of success of treating the use of certain brain altering chemicals is untenably low, even if treatment was "properly" funded?

If there was a measure for success that was agreed upon, for a region, the probability of success would then be lowered to "untenably low". That isn't the case, when data collection is performed.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#23

Post by lotsofpulp » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 6:22 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #18

lotsofpulp wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it possible the probability of success of treating the use of certain brain altering chemicals is untenably low, even if treatment was "properly" funded?

I don't think so. Portugal was famously very successful at drug decriminalization, at least until they slashed funding to rehabilitation programs. If you have data that suggests some drugs just make rehabilitation impossible or unlikely, I'd be interested to see it, though.

I do not have data, but did Portugal deal with fentanyl? And why did Portugal slash funding for treatment?

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#24

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 6:23 PM UTC

Supermancho wrote: post #22

lotsofpulp wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it possible the probability of success of treating the use of certain brain altering chemicals is untenably low, even if treatment was "properly" funded?

If there was a measure for success that was agreed upon, for a region, the probability of success would then be lowered to "untenably low". That isn't the case, when data collection is performed.

[deleted]

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#25

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 6:27 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #16

j_walter wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly they had the best of intentions, but Oregon's politicians are terrible at implementing anything properly. Open drug markets, increased property and retail thefts and a homeless population explosion are what happened...when They always claimed to follow other successful implementations like Portugal, but the law was no where near what they implemented as far as requiring treatment. Whats funny is the Governor…

That's fair, and certainly a problem, but I don't think the solution is "let's just go back to throwing everyone in jail". We know from long experience that isn't working.

[deleted]

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#26

Post by j_walter » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 6:29 PM UTC

runjake wrote: post #12

From the areas I live and work, Measure 110 has, at best, made no difference whatsoever. The current situation with hard drug use is that there are far more drugged out people in public, and far more open drug use in public since 2020. The exact causes, I'll leave to experts to determine. Measure 110 has certainly played a part, though.

Don't forget that many of those people are fueling their drug habits with theft...theft that has gone largely unchecked. Oregon became a destination for addicts where they didn't have to worry about legal troubles that came along with drug use. All

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#27

Post by lotsofpulp » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 6:29 PM UTC

gremlinsinc wrote: post #20

kelnos wrote: post #5

https://archive.is/rznQr We've plainly seen over the past several decades that the War on Drugs is an abject failure. All it's done is increase incarceration rates (without solving the problems of drug use and addiction), and many people caught in the system are just drug users, not distributors/traffickers. This really doesn't help much of anything. > State leaders have acknowledged faults with the policy’s implemen…

Yeah, I see it as a failure in implementing a better road to recidivism for drug users that doesn't involve prison. It's a mental health issue after all. I think perhaps maybe even separate "mental" health from normal healthcare and make it free / universal might go a long way. Maybe insentivize it, like giving plasma. Go to therapy 4 weeks in a row get $100 cash. That way it's not "forcing" people into something whi…

Why would mental health be separated from "normal" healthcare? Mental health involves chemical signals in the brain. Once a chemical dependency has been established, how possible is it to "talk" someone out of it in therapy?

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#28

Post by Alupis » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 6:30 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #10

sharperguy wrote: post #8

I always thought decriminalization was in some ways the worst of both worlds. On one hand, keeping the production and trade side illegal continues to perpetuate the underground culture and fund international cartels. Meanwhile their market base increases due to fewer people being afraid of being caught, the product quality is still completely unregulated. Users still need to stay embedded in an an unscrupulous underw…

I'm not sure that's exactly true. I do agree with you that some people will start using because they lose the fear of being caught, though I'm not convinced this is as large a problem as you might think it is. Either way, there are also undoubtedly people with substance abuse problems who are afraid to get help due to the possibility of incarceration. Removing that fear can lead to more people getting into treatment…

> though I'm not convinced this is as large a problem as you might think it is

Several states have legalized marijuana, and surprise, marijuana usage is at an all-time high (no pun intended). People who would have never tried it before now do so because the stigma is gone, and it's trivial to get.

This part is always lost on the "legalize everything" crowd. While marijuana might be relatively benign, other drugs are not. Removing the stigma and making it easy to get harder drugs is going to be a net-negative thing for society as a hole.

We can see this in-action already. Places like California have effectively de-criminalized most/all drug use if you are part of the homeless population. Surprise again - there's more drug use within that community than ever before. It's difficult to walk through the down-town area without seeing overt drug use these-days.

It would be better to not throw people in prison for drug use - but instead have mandatory rehab or something... while keeping drug use out of reach for the average person.

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#29

Post by j_walter » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 6:31 PM UTC

orangepurple wrote: post #21

j_walter wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly they had the best of intentions, but Oregon's politicians are terrible at implementing anything properly. Open drug markets, increased property and retail thefts and a homeless population explosion are what happened...when They always claimed to follow other successful implementations like Portugal, but the law was no where near what they implemented as far as requiring treatment. Whats funny is the Governor…

I disagree that the implementation is terrible. Having seen several interviews on the matter I think its implemented exactly as the people of Portland wanted it. The major outstanding problem is a lot of the homeless people on drugs need someone to genuinely be there for them and care about them. That's the primary message you will hear from them if you care to listen to their stories on The Soft White Underbelly. It…

They didn't spend any money on it...they didn't fund or push treatment programs at all. The implementation was 100% awful...just like every Oregon program that means well.

https://www.wweek.com/news/state/2023/05/13/survey-shows-ore...

https://www.wweek.com/news/city/2023/03/20/wheeler-slams-mea...

Re: Oregon decriminalized hard drugs – early results aren’t encouraging

#30

Post by orangepurple » Tue, Aug 01, 2023, 6:33 PM UTC

j_walter wrote: post #29

orangepurple wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that the implementation is terrible. Having seen several interviews on the matter I think its implemented exactly as the people of Portland wanted it. The major outstanding problem is a lot of the homeless people on drugs need someone to genuinely be there for them and care about them. That's the primary message you will hear from them if you care to listen to their stories on The Soft White Underbelly. It…

They didn't spend any money on it...they didn't fund or push treatment programs at all. The implementation was 100% awful...just like every Oregon program that means well. https://www.wweek.com/news/state/2023/05/13/survey-shows-ore... https://www.wweek.com/news/city/2023/03/20/wheeler-slams-mea...

Why do legislatures keep passing half-baked drug-related measures? It's not like this was the first one.