How India Became America • Hacker News Board

Re: How India Became America

#21

Post by edderly » Sun, Mar 11, 2012, 6:29 AM UTC

blntechie wrote: post #16

edderly wrote: post #3

Before the elites in India consider themselves comparable to America, I would hope they address the swingeing poverty and piss poor literacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_r...

These are issues that aren't going to be addressed overnight, no matter Indian elites wishes for or not. These will take years or even decades to be addressed because of the socio-economic differences here and complex to understand cultural issues. There should be steps taken to rapidize the process and main problem which is preventing it in my opinion is the another big elephant in the room - corruption. But in the…

I agree it's difficult, but how about let us think that it is possible and important? I would hope technology can help, we already see that cell phones throughout some of the poorest parts of the world have become the default form of non-local communication. If we can hook this kind of connectivity to the education system the opportunities are boundless.

Re: How India Became America

#22

Post by allochthon » Sun, Mar 11, 2012, 6:32 AM UTC

edderly wrote: post #14

allochthon wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if you're Indian or not. But if you're not, your reply seems mean-spirited and misses the point of the article. And as an American, I want to distance myself from this attitude. Each country has its issues that it is dealing with. It's hardly for the elites on this site to tell the elites in India what to do.

I'm not American. I think it's pretty fair to hold the successful to account for environment in which their success exists. “A Nation’s Greatness is Measured By How It Treats Its Weakest Members.” Mahatma Gandhi

You seem to imply that none of the "elites" in India have sought to improve the situation with regard to poverty and literacy. This is an unfair position. There may be corruption, apathy and so on, which impede progress along these lines. But there were similar problems in London, New York and Chicago not too long ago (and in American cities there still are such problems). So it would a double standard to say the least to criticize Indians in this connection on one hand and, implicitly, to rest satisfied with one's own government, on the other. If you are criticizing both them and your own society simultaneously (assuming you're not Indian), this hardly provides support for what seems to be your point that Indians aren't doing enough. And India, not being an authoritarian society, cannot simply decree literacy. There is that messy problem of democratic governance.

Everyone on this site should be considered an "elite" for the purposes of this discussion.

Re: How India Became America

#23

Post by enraged_camel » Sun, Mar 11, 2012, 6:36 AM UTC

paraschopra wrote: post #19

Author has a very laser-focused view of India. The country is much more diverse that this article supposes. There is still extreme poverty, religious bigotry, no-holds barred traffic lawlessness, corruption, discreet money and hundreds of other very-Indian issues. Americanization of India is limited to metros and big cities, and there too you see a mind-boggling mix of poverty and abundance.

"There is still extreme poverty, religious bigotry, no-holds barred traffic lawlessness, corruption, discreet money and hundreds of other very-Indian issues."

So does America. The point of the article is that there are some very uniquely American things - consumerism, fast-food, Starbucks, etc. - that have infiltrated Indian culture. I interpreted it as an observation independent of a value judgment.

Re: How India Became America

#24

Post by user2459 » Sun, Mar 11, 2012, 6:40 AM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #23

paraschopra wrote: post #19

Author has a very laser-focused view of India. The country is much more diverse that this article supposes. There is still extreme poverty, religious bigotry, no-holds barred traffic lawlessness, corruption, discreet money and hundreds of other very-Indian issues. Americanization of India is limited to metros and big cities, and there too you see a mind-boggling mix of poverty and abundance.

"There is still extreme poverty, religious bigotry, no-holds barred traffic lawlessness, corruption, discreet money and hundreds of other very-Indian issues." So does America. The point of the article is that there are some very uniquely American things - consumerism, fast-food, Starbucks, etc. - that have infiltrated Indian culture. I interpreted it as an observation independent of a value judgment.

I think what paraschopra is commenting on is that India has certainly not become the USA. It has a passing resemblance in some places if you limit your vision to 5 degrees in front of you, and small sections of the richest parts of India are getting slowly westernized. But India as a whole, the 2nd most populous country in the world, has certainly not become the USA.

But the NYT isn't going to make money with a headline like India still getting slowly westernized in rich areas

Re: How India Became America

#25

Post by pavanky » Sun, Mar 11, 2012, 6:44 AM UTC

edderly wrote: post #3

Before the elites in India consider themselves comparable to America, I would hope they address the swingeing poverty and piss poor literacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_literacy_r...

1) Literacy The problem with the 75 % literacy is that many of those uneducated people are old and can not be taught now. The literacy of youth is about 85% which is still bad, but the number is gaining exponentially and should be near American levels in 15 years. That is less than a generation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_India

2) Poverty

India has been free for 65 years. This was after 200 years of Britain stripmining India of its resources. Our politicians were at fault to go into a socialistic cocoon for nearly 45 years before liberating India's potential. And look at progress that has been made in the last 20 years. The poverty has fallen by 10 percentage points, while the population has increased by ~ 30 percentage points.

I don't necessarily agree with the writer's views, it looked more like an anecdote than an actual analysis / story.

But to quote numbers without actually analysing them is just plain bad.

Re: How India Became America

#26

Post by allochthon » Sun, Mar 11, 2012, 6:54 AM UTC

user2459 wrote: post #24

enraged_camel wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"There is still extreme poverty, religious bigotry, no-holds barred traffic lawlessness, corruption, discreet money and hundreds of other very-Indian issues." So does America. The point of the article is that there are some very uniquely American things - consumerism, fast-food, Starbucks, etc. - that have infiltrated Indian culture. I interpreted it as an observation independent of a value judgment.

I think what paraschopra is commenting on is that India has certainly not become the USA. It has a passing resemblance in some places if you limit your vision to 5 degrees in front of you, and small sections of the richest parts of India are getting slowly westernized. But India as a whole, the 2nd most populous country in the world, has certainly not become the USA. But the NYT isn't going to make money with a headl…

I agree that India is not simply becoming like the US. And I would hope that it wouldn't -- among the many reasons are that we've got lots of problems in the US, including social dislocation and isolation, high rates of divorce and so on.

Re: How India Became America

#27

Post by mds101 » Sun, Mar 11, 2012, 6:58 AM UTC

unhappyhippie wrote: post #6

As an Indian who has spent all but two years of his life in India, when I read stories like this I think of two possibilities: 1. Propaganda by affluent and successful Indians claiming the country is as successful as they are. 2. Westerners overstating Indian progress to feel more comfortable that there is a friendly and reliable challenger to China from the developing world. I don't know, I may be wrong on both coun…

>the reality is that we are a dirt poor country with not just deep institutional problems, but also moral and psychological ones.

I was searching for the words to express this for more than ten minutes before I read your comment. The key here is 'moral and psychological problems'.

To cite just one example, there was a lot of ruckus about the 2G Scam and the Lokpal bill recently. We believe that the guy who got 17200 Crore rupees in kickbacks is a corrupt SOB and should be punished to the maximum extent, but when it was revealed that a leading anti-corruption crusader was actually stealing money from the sponsors who invited her for talks, we dismissed it as a 'small amount'. This kind of 'it's not a crime if its done at a small scale but it's a crime if its done on a large scale' mentality is present among nearly everyone.

Also, another huge problem with Indians is that we as a people do not wish to risk anything. As a result we will never fight for something that should be rightfully ours (like a Government that does it's job). Urban voters are generally brainwashed by the charisma of our politicians or are bought wholesale with a few thousand rupees and a bottle of liquor. Rural voters don't really care who they vote for. As a result we keep alternating between the same two sets of thugs. Will we get out on the streets and protest for better governance like the arabs did? Never.

So, the West can paint many pretty picture and call it India, but this is a country in massive disarray, and the fact that it hasn't already collapsed is purely by chance.

Re: How India Became America

#28

Post by nsns » Sun, Mar 11, 2012, 7:03 AM UTC

This article is almost unbelievable in this day and age. While there is a constant shift in values in urban India towards the West, it was never the case that "Ancient social structures are collapsing under the weight of new money", this is pure Orientalism, India is (and was) always changing like the rest of the world is, it was never "frozen in time", like some Western commentators like it to be (as well as some Indian ones, such as "R. K. Narayan, that great chronicler of India in simpler times", times were never "simpler").

The urban Indians did drift considerably westward during the last two decades, while most villages and towns regressed economically and never adopted Western values (hence the growing "red corridor").

The last two decades were marked by the rise of the Indian Middle Class in urban India (encouraged by the Indian PM Manmohan Singh and his Neo-liberal agenda), and middle classes all over the world seem to share similar values and perspectives. The author might benefit from researching some more, and relying less on his personal impressions and his obsolete (even colonialist) hermeneutic.

Re: How India Became America

#29

Post by edderly » Sun, Mar 11, 2012, 7:08 AM UTC

allochthon wrote: post #22

edderly wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not American. I think it's pretty fair to hold the successful to account for environment in which their success exists. “A Nation’s Greatness is Measured By How It Treats Its Weakest Members.” Mahatma Gandhi

You seem to imply that none of the "elites" in India have sought to improve the situation with regard to poverty and literacy. This is an unfair position. There may be corruption, apathy and so on, which impede progress along these lines. But there were similar problems in London, New York and Chicago not too long ago (and in American cities there still are such problems). So it would a double standard to say the lea…

I don't imply that there is no charity in India, but I suggest that when the country habors one third of the worlds poor that there is a way to go.

I find your argument strange if you don't recognize the magnitude of India's poverty compared to the U.S. and Western Europe. My beef with the article is that it in no ways recognizes this problem.

Re: How India Became America

#30

Post by sliverstorm » Sun, Mar 11, 2012, 7:14 AM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #23

paraschopra wrote: post #19

Author has a very laser-focused view of India. The country is much more diverse that this article supposes. There is still extreme poverty, religious bigotry, no-holds barred traffic lawlessness, corruption, discreet money and hundreds of other very-Indian issues. Americanization of India is limited to metros and big cities, and there too you see a mind-boggling mix of poverty and abundance.

"There is still extreme poverty, religious bigotry, no-holds barred traffic lawlessness, corruption, discreet money and hundreds of other very-Indian issues." So does America. The point of the article is that there are some very uniquely American things - consumerism, fast-food, Starbucks, etc. - that have infiltrated Indian culture. I interpreted it as an observation independent of a value judgment.

Those issues will always exist everywhere. The key is that in India, they are orders of magnitude worse.