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Hungary nuclear plant cuts output because of warm Danube waters

reuters.com

21–30 of 83 posts

Re: Hungary nuclear plant cuts output because of warm Danube waters

#21
Nuclear power plants and coal-fired power plants work off the same principle:

Use the heat to boil water to create steam, run the stream through a steam turbine, and condense the steam back to water. This water is continually recycled throughout the system.

The river water is used to condense the steam back to water and then the water is discharged back to the river - warmer than it came in. If the water coming in from the river is too warm then the condensation rate increases until you get to the point it's out of spec. You can't condense the water fast enough. You need to reduce the plant's output, i.e. reduce the heat.

On the other end the discharge water is always warmer than the intake water. As the intake water warms then the discharge water will also warm - all other things being equal. You'll get to the point the discharge water will raise the water temperature to the point where aquatic life is negatively impacted. There are also laws mandating the maximum temperature for the discharge water.

So, you have to reduce output. That's just how these plants work.

That's the nice thing about natural gas plants - the gas turbines are essentially jet engines - they're fueled directly, no steam or cooling required.

This is something rarely talked about in the solar and wind discussion. People love to point out that the wind and the sun provide intermittent power, while ignoring more and more traditional power plants are curtailing output as water temperatures rise or water levels lower (water intake pipes would be exposed).

Re: Hungary nuclear plant cuts output because of warm Danube waters

#22
nuclear power plants are not environmentally friendly. sure they're carbon friendly and "green" in other ways, but the mining of uranium is horrendously dirty, the long term storage of the waste is dirty as hell and this waterways heating issue is just another problem.

green renewable should be our goals, we're bathed in power every day it just needs to be bottled. nuclear plants have their place, but its few and far between and i would argue less than desirable in general.

Re: Hungary nuclear plant cuts output because of warm Danube waters

#23

Note that warm waters is a typical strawman argument against nuclear power. These are rare anomalies and there's dry-cooling of nuclear power plants (although it's less efficient and costs more).

Plus, it's a design parameter in a performance/cost trade-off.

It's _designed_ to not work at full power at this heat, because that was thought to be the ideal trade-off.

Maybe it still is, maybe they underestimated the occurrence of high water temperature incidents, but in any case it's a consciously designed safe state.

Re: Hungary nuclear plant cuts output because of warm Danube waters

#24
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Climate change starts hurting one of our best chances of avoiding climate change.

A bit of an exaggeration. It's the middle of summer. It's not like this water source won't cool down again.

Everything is fine. Carry on.

Re: Hungary nuclear plant cuts output because of warm Danube waters

#26
post #21

Nuclear power plants and coal-fired power plants work off the same principle: Use the heat to boil water to create steam, run the stream through a steam turbine, and condense the steam back to water. This water is continually recycled throughout the system. The river water is used to condense the steam back to water and then the water is discharged back to the river - warmer than it came in. If the water coming in fr…

Large gas power plants are combined cycle steam plants. Only the smallest ones are simple cycle as you describe. Large gas power stations are as complicated as any other thermal power station.

Re: Hungary nuclear plant cuts output because of warm Danube waters

#27

Note that warm waters is a typical strawman argument against nuclear power. These are rare anomalies and there's dry-cooling of nuclear power plants (although it's less efficient and costs more).

Rare anomalies currently. Will they continue to be rare anomalies going forward? Also, high heat moments are the times when you likely need more power than ever...

Re: Hungary nuclear plant cuts output because of warm Danube waters

#28
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. Also this shows that the Danube is not able to cool the power plant, yet the guys are building Paks II...

It's perfectly able to do so, but not at full power without heating up the river so much it would hurt organisms in there. Even then, it _could_ have been designed to do so - through more flow - but it's just a design parameter that was optimized in a cost/performance trade-off.

Cost performance tradeoffs aren't some minor thing. If you cannot produce energy at a cost effective level, you might as well not produce it at all. The theoretical capabilities of the thing are not relevant if the economics of them don't work.

Re: Hungary nuclear plant cuts output because of warm Danube waters

#29

nuclear power plants are not environmentally friendly. sure they're carbon friendly and "green" in other ways, but the mining of uranium is horrendously dirty, the long term storage of the waste is dirty as hell and this waterways heating issue is just another problem. green renewable should be our goals, we're bathed in power every day it just needs to be bottled. nuclear plants have their place, but its few and far…

> green renewable should be our goals

Comfortable life for everyone is my goal.

> we're bathed in power every day it just needs to be bottled

That word "just" proves that you don't know what you are talking about.

Re: Hungary nuclear plant cuts output because of warm Danube waters

#30
post #21

Nuclear power plants and coal-fired power plants work off the same principle: Use the heat to boil water to create steam, run the stream through a steam turbine, and condense the steam back to water. This water is continually recycled throughout the system. The river water is used to condense the steam back to water and then the water is discharged back to the river - warmer than it came in. If the water coming in fr…

We don't talk about it, because we want to get _away_ from igniting huge amounts of underground carbon-based material and putting it straight in the atmosphere. We want to move to methods of power generation that do _not_ significantly upset the delicate balance of a livable planet.

Continuing adding more carbon to the atmosphere is only worsening the situation.

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