VanMoof encryption key exporter • Hacker News Board

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#21

Post by wraptile » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 6:25 AM UTC

yabatopia wrote: post #12

gregdoesit wrote: post #2

Note that a competitor to VanMoof, Cowboy Bikes, have also created an iOS app - with a beta on the App Store - that supposedly does the same (saving the encryption keys locally). I say supposedly because the source is not available to inspect. However, the linked FAQ states that no data is stored outside the app. Here it is: https://bikey-app.cowboy.bike/ (Note this is not en endorsement for Cowboy - whom I know noth…

Going from Vanmoof to Cowboy Bikes is like switching from the plague to cholera. Same modus operandi: excessively VC funded, lots of hype, proprietary parts, mounting losses, loosing money with every sale, ... and it's getting worse every year. Cowboy Bikes is just another bankruptcy waiting to happen.

How on earth are they losing money selling a 3000-5000$ _bicycles_ lol. I'm flabbergasted.

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#22

Post by bicx » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 6:27 AM UTC

benoliver999 wrote: post #20

jjav wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Honest question: what’s the appeal of a bike that needs an internet connection & app to unlock? I struggle to understand those who think something like that could be a good idea. Isn't it obvious that an app will not be around for as long as a bike can last? I have a bike from the early 90s, that's over 30 years. Does anyone think an app will be around even for 10 years, let alone 30+?

I worry about this with most components of e-bikes. I suppose a mid-drive one is probably always gonna have parts you can replace but custom kit like VanMoof seems ready for landfill.

My VanMoof is currently dead, awaiting to be shipped off to the VanMoof shop to supposedly replace a battery that is erroring out. Now I’m concerned that I’ll never be able to use it again, or that I’ll lose the bike completely if I hand it over to them for repairs just as they are being shuttered.

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#23

Post by Arnt » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 6:32 AM UTC

wjnc wrote: post #3

Don’t buy products made by VC funded firms! Especially not if it’s a real product and you value repairability and service. VanMoof made losses the size of their revenue. They made bikes… where’s the natural monopoly to be chased there?

What did Van Moof make, exactly? Do you think they were normal bikes?

They made expensive e-bikes with theft recovery features. They have features that make it possible to trace and locate them, and Van Moof would actually do this. For people who spend €3-4k on an easily stolen object that the police won't care about, that's a unique selling point.

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#24

Post by Rebelgecko » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 6:33 AM UTC

TeMPOraL wrote: post #15

gnopgnip wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it’s stolen they will either recover it or replace it. And everyone knows this, so no one will buy a stolen one and they are less likely to be stolen.

> And everyone knows this You mean they know the vendor is an infinite supplier of free bikes to steal, deSaaSify, and sell to a different market? Either way, the message doesn't spread itself; I wouldn't overestimate how much small-scale semi-pro thiefs know or care about bullshit tech startups.

Vanmoof's whole thing is recovering the bikes

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#25

Post by Daz1 » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 6:34 AM UTC

ano-ther wrote: post #8

Honest question: what’s the appeal of a bike that needs an internet connection & app to unlock?

...You have less to worry about with regard to theft? I don't understand your question.

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#26

Post by walthamstow » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 6:35 AM UTC

ano-ther wrote: post #8

Honest question: what’s the appeal of a bike that needs an internet connection & app to unlock?

I have an older model, the ES2, which can be unlocked by tapping a key code into the button in the handlebars. I don't ever use the app for anything, it's not even downloaded to my current phone.

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#27

Post by seu » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 6:36 AM UTC

jjav wrote: post #14

ano-ther wrote: post #8

Honest question: what’s the appeal of a bike that needs an internet connection & app to unlock?

> Honest question: what’s the appeal of a bike that needs an internet connection & app to unlock? I struggle to understand those who think something like that could be a good idea. Isn't it obvious that an app will not be around for as long as a bike can last? I have a bike from the early 90s, that's over 30 years. Does anyone think an app will be around even for 10 years, let alone 30+?

> Isn't it obvious that an app will not be around for as long as a bike can last?

That's the softwarization of everything, with its in-built early obsolesce: they clearly expect you to start replacing your bike as frequently as you replace your phone, irrelevant of how long the hardware itself is still functional.

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#28

Post by arp242 » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 6:37 AM UTC

wraptile wrote: post #21

yabatopia wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Going from Vanmoof to Cowboy Bikes is like switching from the plague to cholera. Same modus operandi: excessively VC funded, lots of hype, proprietary parts, mounting losses, loosing money with every sale, ... and it's getting worse every year. Cowboy Bikes is just another bankruptcy waiting to happen.

How on earth are they losing money selling a 3000-5000$ _bicycles_ lol. I'm flabbergasted.

They spent a lot of money on expansion, opening stores in places like NYC and Tokyo. I'm also betting that since all the parts in their bikes are custom-produced for them, the production cost of their bikes is quite high as well (that is, they're not making that much money per bike).

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#29

Post by Rebelgecko » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 6:41 AM UTC

ano-ther wrote: post #8

Honest question: what’s the appeal of a bike that needs an internet connection & app to unlock?

You don't need an internet connection or the app, but that's the most convenient way - you can enter a PIN on the bike itself to unlock it.

I think the appeal (at least for me, I considered one but never got one) is that it makes the bike harder to steal. Someone can't just ride off on it after they cut your lock. I worry about leaving my $600 bike out in public, so I'd be super paranoid about a $2000+ bike.

Re: VanMoof encryption key exporter

#30

Post by arp242 » Fri, Jul 14, 2023, 6:42 AM UTC

aden1ne wrote: post #18

fermentation wrote: post #4

I'm just now hearing about VanMoof failing. This is surprising, considering these bikes seem to have pretty meh build quality and are being priced much higher than one would expect.

The build quality is so bad they are going under in warranty claims. They also don't use common components, so very few bike repair shops in high-volume markets (e.g. Netherlands) are willing to touch VanMoof bikes.

Apparently they spent €8M on warranty claims, on an income of €83M, so ~10% of their income. It's not really clear to me if this is exuberantly high, especially since this may also cover non-traditional "warranty" like their theft recovery.