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Spying on a smartphone remotely by the authorities: feasibility and operation

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21–30 of 98 posts

Re: Spying on a smartphone remotely by the authorities: feasibility and operation

#21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't know what code is running on your baseband processor, do you? Do you know what other hardware your baseband processor has the ability to inspect?

In most SoC's the answer is 'everything' because there's no such thing as an IOMMU.

How big a concern is this if the data is encrypted by the kernel or user space?

Re: Spying on a smartphone remotely by the authorities: feasibility and operation

#22
We already know for a fact that they can surveil virtually all smart devices including appliances and televisions due to the Vault 7 leaks, and this would tend to be corroborated by the national geospatial intelligence agency telling congress that they have a high resolution 3d map of the entire globe's events at any given time.

Re: Spying on a smartphone remotely by the authorities: feasibility and operation

#23
A little OT but strongly related: in France you can go to prison if you refuse to give your phone's password to the police (nothing like a "free country", I guess).

Is there a way to set up a phone so that typing a "special" password puts the phone in an alternate state with different apps and content, etc. (and possibly erase the regular content)?

Re: Spying on a smartphone remotely by the authorities: feasibility and operation

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could we know for sure? Basebands are 100% proprietary, we have no idea how they operate and even less of an idea of how their operation might be subverted.

This is why I'm an open source advocate. It's not that open source automatically makes software/firmware trustworthy, it's that closed source empirically guarantees the software/firmware can never be deemed trustworthy.

And yet there have been plenty of long standing security issues in Linux…

Why would you think that a bunch of people volunteering their time would be more motivated to look for security issues and even those that are found, how many would be disclosed responsibly instead of being sold to places like Pegasus?

Re: Spying on a smartphone remotely by the authorities: feasibility and operation

#25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, especially when searching for evidence left behind by competent adversaries (e.g. NSA, GCHQ, etc) who have a strong motivation to remain undetected.

> Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence But it is also not evidence of the thing for which there is absence of evidence. EDIT: > especially when searching for evidence left behind by competent adversaries (e.g. NSA, GCHQ, etc) who have a strong motivation to remain undetected. No, there is no “especially”; absence of evidence means no basis for any affirmative belief, period, equally for any fact proposition…

I'm not asserting that it is.

In risk management, you shouldn't ignore known unknowns like that, you should either adapt your threat model or risk accept, not simply consider that risk nonexistent until proven.

Re: Spying on a smartphone remotely by the authorities: feasibility and operation

#26

Can the thing France just made legal be done? > French police should be able to spy on suspects by remotely activating the camera, microphone and GPS of their phones and other devices, lawmakers agreed late on Wednesday, July 5. https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2023/07/06/france-s... Why would anyone stir up the civil libertarians if the thing you are making legal is not possible?

I would assume this is possible. If the gov wants to bad enough, I'd guess most OSes have a way to remotely control and observe. A state has resources to research 0days, bank them, and use them as needed. But probably not worth using unless it's for a high value target.

Re: Spying on a smartphone remotely by the authorities: feasibility and operation

#27
post #8
post #7

This question has been in my head recently. How feasible is it really? The answer in the link isn’t comprehensive. Is it really out of the question for manufacturer’s to ship a particular version of a device and software for a target country? Nation states have a history of backdooring or weakening particular technologies.

Baseband backdoor. No need to target the OS or the primary CPU.

Exactly, and we're talking about governments, not competing companies. "You wanna sell phones or build infrastructure here? Fine, here's a truckload of appliances to put in the middle of each pipe; no questions please". There are many ways a government can ruin businesses even without swatting their offices or raise public anger, they just need to apply different bureaucratic pressure where it is needed so that for example a permit, tax installment or reduction, whatever that otherwise would take 6 months will require say 5 years or more.

Re: Spying on a smartphone remotely by the authorities: feasibility and operation

#29
Any broadband chip since 3G ships with proprietary drivers which have backdoors. I tried to build an open phone, worked for one of the major telcos, and could never get around the driver issue in trying to make an open phone.

BUT sophisticated attackers like US or Israeli governments (and I assume Russian or Chinese but I don’t have direct experience with these) don’t need these backdoors, getting anywhere near your phone is enough to root it to allow installation of spyware, according to my CSO who worked in naval intelligence. There are simply too many vulnerabilities for there to be a hardened device in the consumer space. Some are better than others (Apple) but as Bruce Schneier says, if you are worried about this sort of thing you really have to be totally disconnected from the internet and exchange encrypted physical media.

Re: Spying on a smartphone remotely by the authorities: feasibility and operation

#30
post #8
post #7

This question has been in my head recently. How feasible is it really? The answer in the link isn’t comprehensive. Is it really out of the question for manufacturer’s to ship a particular version of a device and software for a target country? Nation states have a history of backdooring or weakening particular technologies.

Baseband backdoor. No need to target the OS or the primary CPU.

Are basebands not sandboxed at all? There's no conceivable reason that my baseband should be able to access my camera, microphone, or the contents of my display in normal production use, as that's all filtered through the CPU typically. Why not have an MMU that limits the baseband to DMA in a specific chunk of memory and reduce the attack surface dramatically? It's not just effective against nation states. With such a protection, 0-click OTA attacks targeting the baseband would have a much smaller blast radius.
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