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Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

theguardian.com

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Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#21

Post by pornel »

goethes_kind wrote: post #16
martythemaniak wrote: post #4

While Toyota has been busy looking for silver bullets that will solve imagined problems, Tesla has been scaling hard with good-enough technology. Their Q2'23 production is a hair under 2 million units per year, so they're already a mid-size OEM (the size of BMW, MB, Audi, etc).

Maybe Toyota does not want to compete in the luxury EV business because they do not see a profit for them. Toyota's success was not built on their luxury models.

EVs (at least those with road-trippable range) are currently aiming for a "luxury-ish" segment, because it helps hide the cost of the battery.

Extra $8K on a $50K car isn't too bad and can be hidden by cutting costs somewhere else. But on a <$20K car there's nothing left to cut, and the extra cost takes it out of the budget segment.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#22

Post by sieabahlpark »

loeg wrote: post #13
jqpabc123 wrote: post #3

Japanese firm believes it *could* make a solid-state battery... The key word here is obviously *could*. Add one more to the pile of claims and beliefs floating around that have yet to transform into viable products. I have been a Toyota fan from way back. I have owned a number of their vehicles. But in my mind, they lost a lot of technical credibility when they tried to apply political influence in a short sighted at…

Another key word is "Toyota" -- even if the battery tech is great, is Toyota really going to start making EVs or selling batteries? Japanese manufacturers have been dragging their feet on full EVs, possibly because the domestic Japanese grid can't really support EVs.

[dead]

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#23

Post by jqpabc123 »

benj111 wrote: post #15
jqpabc123 wrote: post #3

Japanese firm believes it *could* make a solid-state battery... The key word here is obviously *could*. Add one more to the pile of claims and beliefs floating around that have yet to transform into viable products. I have been a Toyota fan from way back. I have owned a number of their vehicles. But in my mind, they lost a lot of technical credibility when they tried to apply political influence in a short sighted at…

Don't their hydrogen cars use fuel cells. Ie they use electric motors not ic engines

Yes but you're missing the point.

The infrastructure needed to fully support hydrogen would take decades to develop. Starting with some way to efficiently manufacture hydrogen without using even more fossil fuels.

It's the stall that they wanted --- to give them more time to milk ICE and adapt.

There is no corresponding infrastructure delay for EVs which are already being adopted.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#24

Post by Projectiboga »

jqpabc123 wrote: post #23
benj111 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't their hydrogen cars use fuel cells. Ie they use electric motors not ic engines

Yes but you're missing the point. The infrastructure needed to fully support hydrogen would take decades to develop. Starting with some way to efficiently manufacture hydrogen without using even more fossil fuels. It's the stall that they wanted --- to give them more time to milk ICE and adapt. There is no corresponding infrastructure delay for EVs which are already being adopted.

Toyota has actually pivoted and partnered with Mazada to share tech to fill watch other's gaps. Toyota is releasing a full electric car in about 12-15 months.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#25

Post by craig1f »

jqpabc123 wrote: post #3

Japanese firm believes it *could* make a solid-state battery... The key word here is obviously *could*. Add one more to the pile of claims and beliefs floating around that have yet to transform into viable products. I have been a Toyota fan from way back. I have owned a number of their vehicles. But in my mind, they lost a lot of technical credibility when they tried to apply political influence in a short sighted at…

Exactly this. Hydrogen is like crypto. It has just enough interesting tech to attract (using D&D terminology here) high INT, low WIS people.

Hydrogen will probably never work unless someone comes up with a stable molecule that includes hydrogen, is large enough to not move through solid objects, and still retains enough chemical energy to be useful. Ammonium is one option, but it is highly toxic. Only really practical in cargo ships.

Hydrogen also can be useful for inherently expensive things like rockets and jet planes. But never cars.

It was never going to compete with electric. EVs have been slandered for so long that people just assumed we would come up with something better. But EVs are great. Driving an ICE car after being in a Tesla feels like playing a first-person shooter over dial-up.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#26

Post by jqpabc123 »

Projectiboga wrote: post #24
jqpabc123 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but you're missing the point. The infrastructure needed to fully support hydrogen would take decades to develop. Starting with some way to efficiently manufacture hydrogen without using even more fossil fuels. It's the stall that they wanted --- to give them more time to milk ICE and adapt. There is no corresponding infrastructure delay for EVs which are already being adopted.

Toyota has actually pivoted and partnered with Mazada to share tech to fill watch other's gaps. Toyota is releasing a full electric car in about 12-15 months.

Yes --- they're now being forced to play catch-up after their ridiculous attempt at diversion went nowhere.

Here is what they were spouting less than 2 years ago.

   “By promoting further collaboration in producing, transporting and using fuel in combination with internal combustion engines, the five companies aim to provide customers with greater choice”.
https://cleantechnica.com/2021/11/15/toyotas-team-japan-aims...

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#27

Post by hourago »

I remember this kind of news for tech like hard disks. Day to day it felt that this improvements do not matter but that 20MB hard disk became 100MB then 400MB. It was exciting to see 1GB, it seemed impossible. Now you have for granted 1,000,000MB SSD super-fast high-capacity hard disks.

I hope that batteries continue improving like this and other technologies. It is going to be like magic.

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#28

Post by Shawnj2 »

loeg wrote: post #13
jqpabc123 wrote: post #3

Japanese firm believes it *could* make a solid-state battery... The key word here is obviously *could*. Add one more to the pile of claims and beliefs floating around that have yet to transform into viable products. I have been a Toyota fan from way back. I have owned a number of their vehicles. But in my mind, they lost a lot of technical credibility when they tried to apply political influence in a short sighted at…

Another key word is "Toyota" -- even if the battery tech is great, is Toyota really going to start making EVs or selling batteries? Japanese manufacturers have been dragging their feet on full EVs, possibly because the domestic Japanese grid can't really support EVs.

They’ve been selling the Bz4x for about a year now which is basically an electric RAV4

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#29

Post by [deleted] »

goethes_kind wrote: post #16
martythemaniak wrote: post #4

While Toyota has been busy looking for silver bullets that will solve imagined problems, Tesla has been scaling hard with good-enough technology. Their Q2'23 production is a hair under 2 million units per year, so they're already a mid-size OEM (the size of BMW, MB, Audi, etc).

Maybe Toyota does not want to compete in the luxury EV business because they do not see a profit for them. Toyota's success was not built on their luxury models.

[deleted]

Re: Toyota claims battery breakthrough in potential boost for electric cars

#30

Post by ramesh31 »

Dear battery technology claimant,

Thank you for your submission of proposed new revolutionary battery technology. Your new technology claims to be superior to existing lithium-ion technology and is just around the corner from taking over the world. Unfortunately your technology will likely fail, because:

[ ] it is impractical to manufacture at scale.

[ ] it will be too expensive for users.

[ ] it suffers from too few recharge cycles.

[ ] it is incapable of delivering current at sufficient levels.

[ ] it lacks thermal stability at low or high temperatures.

[ ] it lacks the energy density to make it sufficiently portable.

[ ] it has too short of a lifetime.

[ ] its charge rate is too slow.

[ ] its materials are too toxic.

[ ] it is too likely to catch fire or explode.

[ ] it is too minimal of a step forward for anybody to care.

[ ] this was already done 20 years ago and didn't work then.

[ ] by the time it ships li-ion advances will match it.

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