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Solar sprawl is tearing up the Mojave Desert. Is there a better way?

latimes.com

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Re: Solar sprawl is tearing up the Mojave Desert. Is there a better way?

#21

Post by talldatethrow »

Arnt wrote: post #16
talldatethrow wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Environmentalists do this all the time. My town has a large popular off highway vehicle park open for at least 50 years. It's probably less than 0.1% of the surrounding area that basically gets zero use. They now want to close down this off-road park, to preserve the land for future use. They're finding rare special lizards there. A rare butterfly. Who knows. People are starting to think they import these things and…

That trick requires a very rare butterfly or something, which is another way of saying that it doesn't work while there are still 99.9% unaffected areas. It only works when most habitats have been ruined already, thereby making the species very rare.

More evidence they probably bring the species in themselves prior.

You can't tell me that with hundreds of thousands of basically untouched acres of hills available, this lizard or butterfly decided that a noisy area full of 2 stroke motorcycles was their best bet.

Re: Solar sprawl is tearing up the Mojave Desert. Is there a better way?

#22

Post by wkat4242 »

transcriptase wrote: post #15
kjkjadksj wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are distrupting ecosystems but you cant destroy ecosystems. The most urbanized or polluted place on earth is still an ecosystem. It takes time for an abundance of species to emerge that can take advantage of this ecosystem, but it will emerge. Consider the rock dove, evolved to roost in the very specific environment of a rock cliff. Today, however, ecosystems have changed, cities are more or less giant artificial…

Or consider the fact that most of North America was under a thick sheet of ice only 10,000 years ago.

But now we're changing climates over the course of hundreds of years, not tens of thousands. We're not giving nature time to adapt (nor ourselves, for that matter)

Climate change is "normal" on our planet, yes. But it's not normal at the speed at which we are causing it now.

Re: Solar sprawl is tearing up the Mojave Desert. Is there a better way?

#23

Post by avar »

talldatethrow wrote: post #21
Arnt wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That trick requires a very rare butterfly or something, which is another way of saying that it doesn't work while there are still 99.9% unaffected areas. It only works when most habitats have been ruined already, thereby making the species very rare.

More evidence they probably bring the species in themselves prior. You can't tell me that with hundreds of thousands of basically untouched acres of hills available, this lizard or butterfly decided that a noisy area full of 2 stroke motorcycles was their best bet.

I don't know about your case, or where you live.

But generally you're not taking into account that the location of your town isn't random, it's probably the most desirable area for habitation in those hundreds of thousands of acres.

That's why people settled there in the first place, e.g. at the mouth of a river, an oasis or wetland in the middle of a desert etc, pick your local equivalent.

So it's entirely possible in the general case that some mundane area just outside of town is the only remaining habitat for an endangered species.

It'll be there because the species's original habit is where the town is now located, and that there's a limit to how far away they could get before being entirely unviable.

Likewise, the location of the off-road park won't be random either. Those tend to be located in areas with an abundance of certain landscape features.

Just as humans might pick those for recretation, some animals might pick them because they provide an ideal habitat.

And I think lizards and butterflies care less about noise or traffic than you think.

Re: Solar sprawl is tearing up the Mojave Desert. Is there a better way?

#24

Post by kjkjadksj »

wkat4242 wrote: post #22
transcriptase wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or consider the fact that most of North America was under a thick sheet of ice only 10,000 years ago.

But now we're changing climates over the course of hundreds of years, not tens of thousands. We're not giving nature time to adapt (nor ourselves, for that matter) Climate change is "normal" on our planet, yes. But it's not normal at the speed at which we are causing it now.

Theres been plenty of extinction events that were far faster and vastly more destructive than even climate change from us humans. These events serve as opportunities to expose ecological niches to new species. Its all part of life on earth.

Re: Solar sprawl is tearing up the Mojave Desert. Is there a better way?

#25

Post by [deleted] »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #19

This is completely manufacturerd outrage. Someone must be pushing this angle as there's been multiple stories on the same subject recently. When those came up a glance at Google maps revealed green golf courses in the desert next to these solar farms that were of equal size, and vast expanses of empty desert surrounding them. I'm generally in favor of rooftop solar as it has lots of benefits from being distributed an…

[deleted]

Re: Solar sprawl is tearing up the Mojave Desert. Is there a better way?

#26

Post by transcriptase »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #24
wkat4242 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But now we're changing climates over the course of hundreds of years, not tens of thousands. We're not giving nature time to adapt (nor ourselves, for that matter) Climate change is "normal" on our planet, yes. But it's not normal at the speed at which we are causing it now.

Theres been plenty of extinction events that were far faster and vastly more destructive than even climate change from us humans. These events serve as opportunities to expose ecological niches to new species. Its all part of life on earth.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1815_eruption_of_Mount_Tambo...

According to some people’s mental model of how the world works, an event like this should leave the entire earth a barren wasteland.

Instead the caldera itself is now a National Park known for its forests rich biodiversity, some 200 years later.

Re: Solar sprawl is tearing up the Mojave Desert. Is there a better way?

#27

Post by uptime »

I skimmed TFA and this is less about “environmentalist” boogeymen than it is about policy that leads to quick cash-in on incentives when better policy could make a more robust system that benefits more people. If we are going to have financial incentives let’s overpay for rooftop solar and neighborhood scale batteries, over-crop panels and rural batteries - and plonk a bunch of money down to get a grid that is more nimble. ex: Texas coal and oil electric plants are failing in the heat and the cold, we need more outrage there and a smarter grid to tap the renewables.

We will still be giving money to people/corps rich enough to own a lot of rooftop, but regular folks can benefit more. It should be easier to cool them down when overheated, they could help with blistering heat in parking lots etc.

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