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Brussels unveils plans for a digital euro promising complete privacy

euronews.com

21–30 of 43 posts

Re: Brussels unveils plans for a digital euro promising complete privacy

#21

>"Personal data would be fully protected. Banks, not even the ECB, would not see or be able to trace, people's personal details or data. Offline payments would offer a similar level of privacy as cash does today," Dombrovskis told reporters. Yeah, lol no I'm not buying that. Maybe if the actual architecture and source code gets open sourced and people more knowledgeable than me audit it...

Call me cynical but I don’t see why the EU would push this apart from attempts to snoop and control peoples expenses.

Re: Brussels unveils plans for a digital euro promising complete privacy

#22
post #14

I'd like to know more about the technical implementation. For society, this is really important. Basically everyone needs a bank account. In some countries, the government even forces people implicitly to have one in order to pay taxes or fees. In such a case, the government should provide a solution for this too. Then, there are also economic implications of this. Society needs to run many banks, which uses a lot of…

>Of course people will argue against this as the government would have full control over people’s money. But I think that’s the case anyway. To an extent, but (speaking for the US primarily) there is significant added friction from the current distributed nature of the legacy banking system. If it were as easy as typing a person's ID number into a form and the system would take care of the rest, it would certainly be…

> freezing the accounts of thousands of people attending a protest with today's system would be a monumental task

We already have that system. They put your name on a list, and everyone with that name or similar has lots of paperwork to do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_Action_Task_Force_bl...

Re: Brussels unveils plans for a digital euro promising complete privacy

#24

This sure reads like a press release announcing a project that hasn't been designed or built yet. Promising complete privacy and fully offline transactions both sound dubious. What mechanisms would be in place to allow me to transfer money from my KYC bank account to an anonymous wallet without it being tracked? If the max is €3000 but it's entirely private, how could they possibly know I don't have a higher balance…

> What mechanisms would be in place to allow me to transfer money from my KYC bank account to an anonymous wallet without it being tracked?

I really doubt that they intend do use it, but zero-knowledge cryptography indeed can accomplish this, so there is no technical limitation afaik.

> If the max is €3000 but it's entirely private, how could they possibly know I don't have a higher balance or multiple wallets?

This gets trickier. Let's say we limit to 3000 per account (and use whatever else to limit accounts/person). This would be possible, but would also reveal the amount on the account: try to send decreasing amounts, first one that succeeds reveals previous balance. There's probably an entity that can simulate sending too.

> What tech is even being used to allow fully private, offline transactions in the first place? How does the receiver verify that the digital cash is legit? And how does the network ensure that the money wasn't double spent while offline?

Yeah, this one is impossible.

Re: Brussels unveils plans for a digital euro promising complete privacy

#25

This sure reads like a press release announcing a project that hasn't been designed or built yet. Promising complete privacy and fully offline transactions both sound dubious. What mechanisms would be in place to allow me to transfer money from my KYC bank account to an anonymous wallet without it being tracked? If the max is €3000 but it's entirely private, how could they possibly know I don't have a higher balance…

Regarding offline payments perhaps what they mean here is that you as the wallet holder don't need network connectivity but the merchant does?

Re: Brussels unveils plans for a digital euro promising complete privacy

#26

How can they make it work offline while protecting the money from being duplicated? That's something that I don't quite understand. Would they give a unique ID to each cent so that if two with the same ID appear they see the discrepancy, but even that wouldn't work for offline, unless if they're planning to make it so that you have to go online every set period of time and then they verify the money.

> How can they make it work offline while protecting the money from being duplicated?

It's not actually possible to prevent this entirely. It's not even possible with physical currency. You can always look at a bank note and make an exact-enough duplicate, then spend it twice.

> they're planning to make it so that you have to go online every set period of time and then they verify the money.

That's not a hard requirement, but yes. The central bank is the final authority on what currency is counterfeit or not.

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For current technology, I think it's probably sufficient to have a smart card issued by the central bank, with an embedded certificate chained to the central bank. For offline transactions, the two cards can establish an encrypted stream, mutually verify that they were attested by the central bank, and then mark notes as transferred to the other party in TXN#X, run the transfer, then delete the notes entirely.

Interrupting the process might leave the notes in a partial state (marked for transfer to a particular smart card), but the connection can be reestablished to try again, so long as the TXN# isn't incremented by another transaction.

Now you have to hack a smart card processor to double spend (and only offline, and still detectable), which is of similar difficulty and risk to making counterfeit banknotes.

Maybe North Korea will sell you an infinite money card, but it will only get you free coffee when hiking in the Alps, and only until that card's certificate is added to the revocation list and people update their transfer boxes.

Re: Brussels unveils plans for a digital euro promising complete privacy

#27
post #25

This sure reads like a press release announcing a project that hasn't been designed or built yet. Promising complete privacy and fully offline transactions both sound dubious. What mechanisms would be in place to allow me to transfer money from my KYC bank account to an anonymous wallet without it being tracked? If the max is €3000 but it's entirely private, how could they possibly know I don't have a higher balance…

Regarding offline payments perhaps what they mean here is that you as the wallet holder don't need network connectivity but the merchant does?

That could very well be what they mean, though that isn't offline at all and is no different than my offline credit card being run through an online card reader

If they want to compare it to cash, I'd have to be able to give you the money directly without any network verification. Just the step of a receiver having to ask the network to validate means there is no guarantee of privacy.

Re: Brussels unveils plans for a digital euro promising complete privacy

#29
post #24

This sure reads like a press release announcing a project that hasn't been designed or built yet. Promising complete privacy and fully offline transactions both sound dubious. What mechanisms would be in place to allow me to transfer money from my KYC bank account to an anonymous wallet without it being tracked? If the max is €3000 but it's entirely private, how could they possibly know I don't have a higher balance…

> What mechanisms would be in place to allow me to transfer money from my KYC bank account to an anonymous wallet without it being tracked? I really doubt that they intend do use it, but zero-knowledge cryptography indeed can accomplish this, so there is no technical limitation afaik. > If the max is €3000 but it's entirely private, how could they possibly know I don't have a higher balance or multiple wallets? This…

> I really doubt that they intend do use it, but zero-knowledge cryptography indeed can accomplish this, so there is no technical limitation afaik.

It's really hard to say without details of how the proposed system would actually work, but I don't think they can get away from KYC laws.

They'd still have the on ramp / off ramp problem of existing cryptocurrencies, my bank would know how much I transferred and some unique identifier of either my wallet or the transaction. Assuming that offline transactions aren't possible, the network would also know every transaction made and could link that back to my original bank deposit.

Re: Brussels unveils plans for a digital euro promising complete privacy

#30

How can they make it work offline while protecting the money from being duplicated? That's something that I don't quite understand. Would they give a unique ID to each cent so that if two with the same ID appear they see the discrepancy, but even that wouldn't work for offline, unless if they're planning to make it so that you have to go online every set period of time and then they verify the money.

Chaum designed and tried to commercialize an anonymous + offline payment system in the 90s already.

Basically he used (and invented) blind signatures to allow the bank to sign a 'coin' without knowing what they signed. The customer takes the blindly signed coins from the bank, pays at a merchant and later the merchant deposits the coins at the bank again, where the signature is checked.

In this context offline just means that the merchant can verify the authenticity of the coin without immediately needing a connection to the bank. At some point in the future, however, the merchant will have to connect to the bank to get their money. Check out his original paper for details[1].

Offline systems have drawbacks, though. E.g the GNU Taler people made the pragmatic decision to have an online system. See chapter 1.2.1 'Offline vs Online' of Florian Dold's Phd thesis for a discussion on why[2].

[1]: https://chaum.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Chaum-1990-Chap... [2]: https://taler.net/papers/thesis-dold-phd-2019.pdf

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