Our group of about 65 is split 2/3 researchers and developers and 1/3 project managers/leads. Since our offices are all along one long hall, we’ve had to be extremely proactive about making sure meetings that involve “makers” are kept to a minimum and they are only allowed to be in the morning to allow for guaranteed blocks of work time. We’ve also gotten really intentional about putting our status on whiteboards on our door so we don’t get pop-ins from managers.
Maker's schedule, Manager's schedule (2009)
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Re: Maker's schedule, Manager's schedule (2009)
#22All true; I have also recently discovered that meetings at the start of the day are not a solution to this problem, because if the meeting is intense (in good or bad, but the effect is more pronounced if the meeting went bad) then you can spend the rest of the day thinking about it. The only solution I can think of about the meeting problem is to have them all in the same day. A day with even just one meeting is ruin…
Sometimes you have two meetings at the start of the day and you end up feeling like you spent most of your day's energy on those meetings: they were intense. Usually intense means that new consequences for a project were revealed, new problems, new deadlines, and sometimes intense discussions also resolve problems or the path ahead, but still cost a lot of energy to accomplish.
Re: Maker's schedule, Manager's schedule (2009)
#23Interesting article that makes some good points but this part >They generally prefer to use time in units of half a day at least. You can't write or program well in units of an hour. That's barely enough time to get started. Seems ... made up? There are all sorts of things you can do in an hour as a programmer: update a test, fix an automation script, fix and/or test a bug. Not all programming starts with grandiose a…
With ADHD it's true, unless I'm on some kind of medication, I need time to get into something and once I'm in it's really hard to stop. So if I'm starting to work on something at 17:30 that could take all my night.. I have to plan my day taking this thing into account
This is enormous, until I finally got a diagnosis and meds a few months ago, I thought everyone just lived in a constant state of frustration about getting knocked out of focus. It’s absolutely unreal the difference now, it feels like I can drop into focus completely at will, even after interruptions! Makes me wonder what I could have accomplished if I’d gotten a diagnosis decades ago
Re: Maker's schedule, Manager's schedule (2009)
#24Interesting article that makes some good points but this part >They generally prefer to use time in units of half a day at least. You can't write or program well in units of an hour. That's barely enough time to get started. Seems ... made up? There are all sorts of things you can do in an hour as a programmer: update a test, fix an automation script, fix and/or test a bug. Not all programming starts with grandiose a…
It's not made up. The things you mention are easy to do when you have a structure. You can update a test when the test framework and test suite is already defined. To create a new structure is a bigger undertaking.
You can add to existing understanding or analysis quickly if you have an overview. To create a new overview is a bigger undertaking.
Re: Maker's schedule, Manager's schedule (2009)
#25All true; I have also recently discovered that meetings at the start of the day are not a solution to this problem, because if the meeting is intense (in good or bad, but the effect is more pronounced if the meeting went bad) then you can spend the rest of the day thinking about it. The only solution I can think of about the meeting problem is to have them all in the same day. A day with even just one meeting is ruin…
If a work meeting ruins your day by prompting rumination, I think that indicates a separate problem with how your workplace communicates.
Re: Maker's schedule, Manager's schedule (2009)
#26I’m inclined to agree with all this but when I’m conversation with someone who has only ever been in a Manager schedule, what would you recommend I point to as actual evidence? Specifically on the cost of meetings to developers.
I have been both an engineer doing engineering work (I hate the word “maker”) and a manager. I found this article infuriating and still do. This article is a pure product of this period when software developers thought themselves as extremely special and above such petty issues as having to attend meetings. It’s entitlement masquerading as wisdom. The truth is everyone has to balance their time between obligations an…
At the end of the day, what matters is getting your job done. If you hire someone, would you rather they be unproductive and avoid talking about this for fear of appearing entitled? Or would you rather they tell it like it is and get stuff done?
Re: Maker's schedule, Manager's schedule (2009)
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have been both an engineer doing engineering work (I hate the word “maker”) and a manager. I found this article infuriating and still do. This article is a pure product of this period when software developers thought themselves as extremely special and above such petty issues as having to attend meetings. It’s entitlement masquerading as wisdom. The truth is everyone has to balance their time between obligations an…
At the end of the day, what matters is getting your job done. If you hire someone, would you rather they be unproductive and avoid talking about this for fear of appearing entitled? Or would you rather they tell it like it is and get stuff done?
Attending meetings is part of doing your jobs. Meetings exist for a purpose. The whole attitude that all meetings are somehow a waste of your precious time show that you both are unable to grasp what’s happening and are strongly entitled. I’m not surprised to see it fully on display here considering the readership but you have to understand that it’s why people who interact with developers find them hard to work with and is largely responsible for the stereotype of the software dev as some kind of eternal adolescents you see on display in most business.
Re: Maker's schedule, Manager's schedule (2009)
#28Interesting article that makes some good points but this part >They generally prefer to use time in units of half a day at least. You can't write or program well in units of an hour. That's barely enough time to get started. Seems ... made up? There are all sorts of things you can do in an hour as a programmer: update a test, fix an automation script, fix and/or test a bug. Not all programming starts with grandiose a…
To each his own, but if I see that I have an hour slot, I prefer to do something like a code review or emails. Even the most menial programming task can easily have a surprise that extends it beyond an hour, and I feel something like anxiety knowing I have a hard interruption coming.
Anecdotally, I do like to have discrete, 4 hour blocks of time, and this is something that seems pretty common (though not universal) among the experienced devs I’ve worked with.
Re: Maker's schedule, Manager's schedule (2009)
#29I’m inclined to agree with all this but when I’m conversation with someone who has only ever been in a Manager schedule, what would you recommend I point to as actual evidence? Specifically on the cost of meetings to developers.
I have been both an engineer doing engineering work (I hate the word “maker”) and a manager. I found this article infuriating and still do. This article is a pure product of this period when software developers thought themselves as extremely special and above such petty issues as having to attend meetings. It’s entitlement masquerading as wisdom. The truth is everyone has to balance their time between obligations an…
I don't know about infuriating but I share your perspective.
At the end of the day, most of us expect to get paid for the code we write. At some level, there is a customer who is ultimately paying for this code. You need to communicate with them via some means or you won't be able to do your job effectively. Either you talk to your team on some recurring/ad-hoc basis, or you get to talk to the end customers directly.
Which one would HN prefer? Filtered internal comms channels where you get to whine and moan about basically everything, or the direct fire of the actual customer where everything is on their terms always? What would ruin your "flow" more? A boring 30 minute call where you were informed the customer is "not happy" or a 2 hour, unfiltered rant session from the live customer?
Re: Maker's schedule, Manager's schedule (2009)
#30Interesting article that makes some good points but this part >They generally prefer to use time in units of half a day at least. You can't write or program well in units of an hour. That's barely enough time to get started. Seems ... made up? There are all sorts of things you can do in an hour as a programmer: update a test, fix an automation script, fix and/or test a bug. Not all programming starts with grandiose a…
You’ve got to remember that a significant aspect of his writing is designed to make a certain type of programmer feel special and revered so that they’ll want his company’s VC money.