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GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

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Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#21

Post by shaky-carrousel »

kramerger wrote: post #9
JonChesterfield wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair warning, I do not like codes of conduct. They're an authoritarian power play justified by fear. Codes of conduct are more about changing who is in the community than about changing the conduct of existing community members. Periodically someone runs afoul of the ruling elite who pass judgement upon them behind closed doors, usually leading to excommunication. The atmosphere of knowing what you say will be report…

[flagged]

I've been collaborating with a bunch of free software projects during decades. Despite my origins and my bad English never ever have I felt excluded, on the contrary, people were more than happy to help. I've never heard of someone excluded from a free software project due their origins.

I would have expected from a highly technical community to implement measures based on facts and studies, not based on a hunch. Where are the studies showing the amount of discrimination before and after implementing a code of conduct in different projects?

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#22

Post by ajsnigrutin »

lionkor wrote: post #7
not_your_vase wrote: post #2

Has there been any project which had its community change its conduct after adopting a CoC? Or any projects which had a profound impact due a CoC? I see that having CoC is getting standard with OSS projects, old and new alike. But have no idea if it actually does anything.

I've lead the moderation team for BeamMP (beammp.com, 150k+ User Discord) for a few months, and been part of it for much longer, and the two most positive changes I've seen are: - Regular meetings to keep everyone on-track (as nobody is being paid, its a passion project, etc) - Setting up clear rules and moderation guidelines, together. The team sat together and came up with a list of do's and don't's, best practices…

Do you just moderate stuff that happens on the discord, or do you ban people if they do some "wrong" stuff outside of discord? Because the CoC draft allows excluding people for doing "wrong" stuff even outside of GCC (-trackers, -mailing lists, etc.).

There's a difference for baning people in places where they should behave professionally, and banning people for stuff they do outside of those places.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#23

Post by gorjusborg »

capableweb wrote: post #20
gorjusborg wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perhaps now the GCC project can step out of obscurity into the big leagues. This has to be parody or trolling, right?

Considering that GCC is basically a super obscure project with near-zero users and no previous history, it sounds pretty accurate to me. I mean, the project could disappear overnight and no one would notice.

Ah, so trolls travel in packs!

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#24

Post by 074edc15 »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #16
kramerger wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

What if you believe that only married male-female couples should have sex and children? Or that people with penises don't belong in womens spaces? Or whatever other currently controversial topic? It has nothing to do with GCC, nothing with code quality, nothing with your contributions to the project, you don't say that in code, in code comments, on gcc mailing lists, anywhere gcc related. But, because of the CoC ( ht…

I'm not sold on the idea that "violations of this code outside these spaces" is a bad thing, it depends what those violations are.

I'm completely happy and have spent my career working with people who's views don't always align with my own. If I have a religious co-worker who believes I will spend eternity burning in hell for my sexuality, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. They have a right to their view, I have a right to my view, and discussion of those views should be left outside of the workplace.

As long as this person treats me with respect, the fact they think I'll spend my non-existent afterlife in a non-existent hell has zero impact on my life.

On the other hand, if they spend their free time advocating for things which will have an impact on my life, such as sending me to prison for my sexuality, that's a very different story. It would be impossible for me to work with someone in a constructive way knowing they're pushing for a world without me in it.

If they're happy to throw me out of society and into prison, I'm happy to throw them out of my project.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#25

Post by kramerger »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #16
kramerger wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

What if you believe that only married male-female couples should have sex and children? Or that people with penises don't belong in womens spaces? Or whatever other currently controversial topic? It has nothing to do with GCC, nothing with code quality, nothing with your contributions to the project, you don't say that in code, in code comments, on gcc mailing lists, anywhere gcc related. But, because of the CoC ( ht…

So basically you want to go to a technical forum with a significant number of Irish members and tell them that in your opinion Irish people should not exist? Don't you see how that makes the place unwelcoming to them??

(Replace Irish with gay, trans, republican, ...)

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#26

Post by foldr »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #16
kramerger wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

What if you believe that only married male-female couples should have sex and children? Or that people with penises don't belong in womens spaces? Or whatever other currently controversial topic? It has nothing to do with GCC, nothing with code quality, nothing with your contributions to the project, you don't say that in code, in code comments, on gcc mailing lists, anywhere gcc related. But, because of the CoC ( ht…

The irony here is that you're using the same kind of logic (the project can't survive if it's closed to transphobes!) that's mocked in the following comment when the shoe is on the other foot (LOL the project can't survive without trans people):

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36430649

This does highlight the point that diversity is to some extent a zero sum game. You can welcome trans people to your project, or transphobes, but not necessarily both.

(I am just using trans people as one of many possible examples.)

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#27

Post by Kye »

not_your_vase wrote: post #2

Has there been any project which had its community change its conduct after adopting a CoC? Or any projects which had a profound impact due a CoC? I see that having CoC is getting standard with OSS projects, old and new alike. But have no idea if it actually does anything.

A Code of Conduct is like a contract. It formalizes norms and expectations so everyone is bound by the agreement on what to do when things go wrong. If you need one to set that culture, something's already wrong, and a contract/CoC won't help you.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#28

Post by znpy »

JonChesterfield wrote: post #6
not_your_vase wrote: post #2

Has there been any project which had its community change its conduct after adopting a CoC? Or any projects which had a profound impact due a CoC? I see that having CoC is getting standard with OSS projects, old and new alike. But have no idea if it actually does anything.

Fair warning, I do not like codes of conduct. They're an authoritarian power play justified by fear. Codes of conduct are more about changing who is in the community than about changing the conduct of existing community members. Periodically someone runs afoul of the ruling elite who pass judgement upon them behind closed doors, usually leading to excommunication. The atmosphere of knowing what you say will be report…

> deadlocks

uh, i might be out of the loop, what's wrong with the word "deadlock" now ?

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#29

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

JonChesterfield wrote: post #15
kelnos wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One guy says "the first example deadlocks", and that makes someone feel uncomfortable, properly fixed by kicking him out of the conference. Oh, please. That's just unfounded FUD-spreading.

[flagged]

These people need to read Nineteen-Eighty-Four and reflect on how it shines a light on their own behavior.

Re: GCC Adopts a Code of Conduct

#30

Post by commitpizza »

I can't wait until the silent majority stops being silent and throws out CoC and their people from projects. It is seriously a toxic thing that creates debates over stuff where there is no need for it to be a debate to begin with.
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