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Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

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Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#21

Post by Clubber »

jruohonen wrote: post #3

A decent but a little bit too alarmist essay in my opinion. A few reservations also, starting with: "Our actions, our words, even our thoughts , are being monitored, recorded, and analyzed. The sanctity of our homes, once our refuge from the world, is under threat." "It’s not just mere data; rather, it’s a master key to the sealed vaults of our thoughts and experiences." The mind-reading stuff is still a fantasy and…

>A decent but a little bit too alarmist essay in my opinion.

A trend that has been going on since at least 9/11. Alarmism is the norm. When alarmism is the norm, only escalating alarmism will be heard. We can't have a normal conversation anymore.

Before: Here's a problem, here's where I think it would go if we ignore it.

Now: Here's a problem, everyone is going to die!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#22

Post by shrimp_emoji »

diegoholiveira wrote: post #18
coremoff wrote: post #13

I disagree that it's a fundamental right. Over most of history privacy has been rare for most people, with the provisio that if you really wanted a private conversation you could have one in the middle of an open field in daylight with a reasonable expectation that your conversation would not be compromised. These days there can be no such expectation, and we need to separate out discussion of day-to-day privacy from…

Many fundamental rights that everyone can agree on today used to be rare in the past, so I'm not sure that use this perspective is the right thing to do.

Water!

Freedom from slavery!

Internet!

Progressing ethically as a civilization is nice.

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#23

Post by edgyquant »

diegoholiveira wrote: post #18
coremoff wrote: post #13

I disagree that it's a fundamental right. Over most of history privacy has been rare for most people, with the provisio that if you really wanted a private conversation you could have one in the middle of an open field in daylight with a reasonable expectation that your conversation would not be compromised. These days there can be no such expectation, and we need to separate out discussion of day-to-day privacy from…

Many fundamental rights that everyone can agree on today used to be rare in the past, so I'm not sure that use this perspective is the right thing to do.

It is. You can’t just argue for something you want as it being a human right when it’s something most people aren’t that concerns with. It makes people not take you or what you’re arguing seriously

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#24

Post by photochemsyn »

This article seems to be a response to this 'free Orwellian TV monitor' offer:

https://www.wired.com/story/telly-tv-free-privacy/

I think the real wet dream of the security state is to have a software agent for every human on the planet. Something rather like this was at the core of DARPA's "Total Information Awareness" program of about two decades ago (later absorbed by the NSA and private contractors IIRC). Today's LLMs help make the concept clear - if you could collect enough data about a person you could create a software construct that could predict how that person would respond to different stimuli - an advertisement, a news story, etc. It would be the greatest tool for mass control every invented in the history of humanity - and those in control would use it to create the most dystopian authoritarian state imaginable - and yet those who lived under that state would probably think they were 'free people'.

The idea was nicely laid out in the 1995 movie, "Twelve Monkeys":

> "Jeffrey Goines : When I was institutionalized, my brain was studied exhaustively in the guise of mental health. I was interrogated, I was x-rayed, I was examined thoroughly. Then, they took everything about me and put it into a computer where they created this model of my mind. Yes! Using that model they managed to generate every thought I could possibly have in the next, say, 10 years. Which they then filtered through a probability matrix of some kind to determine everything I was gonna do in that period. So you see, she knew I was gonna lead the Army of the Twelve Monkeys into the pages of history before it ever even occurred to me. She knows everything I'm ever gonna do before I know it myself. How's that?"

It's the FBI keeping files on citizens, but on steroids. Those claiming 'this is fine' generally don't like to talk about who would get access to the database of agents, and who wouldn't.

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#25

Post by ghaff »

bombcar wrote: post #19
drewcoo wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when people lived in small tribes, there was no privacy in your tribe Anything to back that claim?

I think there's some evidence, take the old saying "three can keep a secret if two are dead" or it's variations. Even the Bible warns about how easily things get spread around. But the Internet and communications moving to online text, etc, greatly increases the provability of the gossip, if you will. Which is a major change that we as a society haven't really adapted to. We treat "private" or "direct" chats as like…

>the old saying "three can keep a secret if two are dead" or it's variations

I was reminded of this just a few weeks ago. Told a few people some news I told them was non-public given I was seeing them in person. Wouldn't you know it, it immediately got up to someone I'd just as soon not have known. Wasn't really a big deal but still annoying.

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#26

Post by sp332 »

coremoff wrote: post #13

I disagree that it's a fundamental right. Over most of history privacy has been rare for most people, with the provisio that if you really wanted a private conversation you could have one in the middle of an open field in daylight with a reasonable expectation that your conversation would not be compromised. These days there can be no such expectation, and we need to separate out discussion of day-to-day privacy from…

It's talking about freedom from massive surveillance networks and unaccountable data collectors who use our data against us. Those didn't exist for most of human history. It's not just about neighborhood gossip.

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#27

Post by BaseballPhysics »

coremoff wrote: post #13

I disagree that it's a fundamental right. Over most of history privacy has been rare for most people, with the provisio that if you really wanted a private conversation you could have one in the middle of an open field in daylight with a reasonable expectation that your conversation would not be compromised. These days there can be no such expectation, and we need to separate out discussion of day-to-day privacy from…

Privacy and private property rights are deeply intertwined (it is, for example, what makes it unlawful for me to walk into your house uninvited and install a hidden camera, or to walk up to your house and stare through your bedroom window while you make love to your partner). Would you argue that, because historically a right to own and control access to private property has "been rare for most people", we shouldn't view it as fundamental, either?

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#28

Post by akomtu »

TekMol wrote: post #9

As an individual, I want privacy of course. But is privacy really important to mankind? If we look at mankind as an organism, the organism can function better if each part knows what the other part is doing. If the left hand knows what the right hand does. Isn't it the same with mankind? Maybe a society is more efficient without privacy. And more efficiency of the society would benefit its members.

Privacy matters when it's privacy from predators, and their number is only growing. You don't want a group of opportunistic burglars to know when you aren't home and what you keep inside. Similarly you want to keep bigger predators blind: adtech, three letter agencies and so on. The utopia you're describing will come true when there are no more predators, and mankind is far from that stage.

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#29

Post by escape-big-tech »

coremoff wrote: post #13

I disagree that it's a fundamental right. Over most of history privacy has been rare for most people, with the provisio that if you really wanted a private conversation you could have one in the middle of an open field in daylight with a reasonable expectation that your conversation would not be compromised. These days there can be no such expectation, and we need to separate out discussion of day-to-day privacy from…

While historical precedent is informative, it should not constrain our conceptualization of fundamental rights. The context and needs of society evolve over time, and so should our understanding of what constitutes a fundamental right.

Privacy, has grown in importance with the surge of digital communication and mass surveillance.

Regarding privileged communication, it is impossible to define the boundary between what should be private and what should not. Just because some information might seem mundane doesn't mean it lacks potential misuse by bad actors.

By fostering a culture of respect for privacy in our day-to-day lives, we strengthen protections against more significant intrusions.

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#30

Post by BaseballPhysics »

edgyquant wrote: post #23
diegoholiveira wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many fundamental rights that everyone can agree on today used to be rare in the past, so I'm not sure that use this perspective is the right thing to do.

It is. You can’t just argue for something you want as it being a human right when it’s something most people aren’t that concerns with. It makes people not take you or what you’re arguing seriously

Except people absolutely are concerned with privacy, if you ask the questions the right way.

The problem is that surveillance capitalism shares a lot of properties with pollution: the effects are typically hidden or ephemeral; the cost to individuals is low while the cost to society is high; and people have largely become complacent if not resigned to the status quo.

And so a) most people don't understand the sheer extent of surveillance capitalism, and b) they don't understand how they're affected by it.

I can't count the number of times I've seen shocked faces when I explained how companies like Acxiom and Experian work. And they've been around for decades! But they operate in the shadows, out of view, and so people simply do not understand how much of their private lives are bought and sold to the highest bidder.

If they understood that--and I mean truly understood it--I suspect the conversation around these topics would be very different indeed.

Meanwhile, large portions of the tech community have a financial motive to want to downplay these issues. "Oh pfft, privacy, so antiquated," they say as they draw down a 300k FAANG salary funded by the harvesting and selling of private information.

And so what's the predominant narrative? Well, the people who are in the best position to understand these issues have a financial incentive to protect the status quo, while everyone else doesn't understand them well enough to form an opinion, and thus the former dominates the discourse.

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