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How to Stare at Your Phone Without Losing Your Soul

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Re: How to Stare at Your Phone Without Losing Your Soul

#21
post #6
post #4

> AA meetings don’t give out badges to members who drink for less than 2 hours per day. I don't agree with that analogy. To use a different analogy, people don't join Weight Watchers because they want to quit eating. Also, from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholics_Anonymous#Criticism : ] Stanton Peele argued that some AA groups apply the disease model to all problem drinkers, whether or not they are "full-blown"…

While what you quoted is not incorrect, and worth pointing out, the analogy stands. In AA, you only get the chip if you abstain from drinking. The chip (a little coin) is an all-or-nothing deal. In AA, we do get people attending who just want to control their drinking. They're usually sent by the courts (in the US, at least) due to some misdemeanor they commited while drunk, as though those of us battling ourselves a…

My disagreement is about the appropriateness of the AA analogy to the author's point.

The author asserts "If that’s the case, the only healthy screen time is no screen time. Zero."

That is almost impossible these days. We increasingly require smart phones such that NOT having/using one is difficult, even for those who don't want one. Important information and services are moving to the internet, making a non-internet life more difficult. Yet the author wants use to consider that as a viable solution!

AA promotes abstinence, and supports people who want to maintain abstinence. As I often go for months without drinking alcohol, I know that there is still a lot one can do without drinking.

What would you do if your company required you to drink alcohol to work, your kid's school required you to drink alcohol to check on your kid's status, a restaurant required you to do a shot to get a menu, and you couldn't rent a bike without first drinking even more alcohol?

And that's why I don't like the author's use of an essentially impossible solution as the comparison.

While Weight Watcher's and other diet plans don't say "abstain from all food", which of course is impossible.

WW specifically uses a points-based system so that some foods, like "leafy greens, carrots, tomatoes, green beans, asparagus, onions, broccoli and radishes" have zero points, and can be consumed without limit. (Compare that to a calorie-based diet.)

By the WW analogy, some screen time, like logging into your bank to check on the accounts, would have zero points while others, like writing comments on HN :), would have points, setting a limit to one's daily use.

Which seems to map well to what the author is proposing ("parameters to evaluate quality, not quantity, of the time spent staring at your screens").

I also don't like "Go on, spend 4 hours on an app. Just make sure you decided to—and that you feel those 4 hours are life well spent." because if the author really believes the alcoholism analogy is true, then it's saying the author either doesn't believe any of the readers actually have a screen time problem, or believes it's okay for an alcoholic to spend 4 hours drinking at the bar with friends, so long if it feels like a life well spent. And something similar for the crack cocaine user.

P.S. In researching the Weight Watcher's/food analogy I found out that the existence of "food addition" is under debate, where the 'language of addiction' is used to explain one's feelings and provide a means of communicating distress and helplessness, rather than being an addition in the same way that drugs are addictive. See https://www.nature.com/articles/s41386-018-0203-9 . With my daily allotment of Internet Watchers points nearly gone, I'll not research the scholarly views of "internet addition".

Re: How to Stare at Your Phone Without Losing Your Soul

#22

I would've agreed some time ago. Today I think it's okay to not optimize everything for efficiency and it's also okay to waste some time on mindless things.

Mindless things like sitting on the porch, idly staring at the wall, or people watching sure. This is the fallow time that enables future growth.

Idly dopamine dripping on internet is like spraying salt on your fields. Nothings going to grow.

Re: How to Stare at Your Phone Without Losing Your Soul

#23

I would've agreed some time ago. Today I think it's okay to not optimize everything for efficiency and it's also okay to waste some time on mindless things.

Yes, but phones are not those things that are okay, unless they're very well-manicured.

It's not mindless, it's far more insidious than that. There are people vying for your attention. They are not doing it mindlessly, and they are not doing it for your benefit.

Almost every mindless activity mankind has ever known hasn't required a phone-sized computer with a touch screen, but somehow that's nearly the only one people are doing anymore. I think that speaks to the effectiveness of the algorithms.

But to your point: Amen. Spend some time getting bored. It fixed a lot for me in the motivation department.

Re: How to Stare at Your Phone Without Losing Your Soul

#24
I don’t stare at my ‘phone’ while my soul expires, I read the ‘newspaper’, group message my family multiple times a day, research something deeper interesting on Wikipedia or a forum, interesting poasts on HN.

Your mileage depends on your self discipline.

Re: How to Stare at Your Phone Without Losing Your Soul

#25
I believe heavily in moderation. It’s a virtue after all and although many pleasures in life are extremely difficult to balance by nature, I think it is possible if you start to understand yourself more to see why you escape to a device.

Also I wrote a book on this topic and love sending copies to HN readers who struggle with this problem. Send me an email and I’ll send you a copy.

https://www.amazon.com/Enough-Seeking-less-world-more/dp/B0B...

Re: How to Stare at Your Phone Without Losing Your Soul

#26
I am able to focus on work but even when I am super busy with work I will spend a lot of time on mobile. So it doesn't interfere with work but does interfere with health and overall well-being.

I have removed all social media apps from my device including Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn. I don't use media streaming apps on mobile like YouTube.

I do spend a lot of time reading on mobile that is helpful but it does train my focus to constantly context switch and reduces my ability to focus for non-appealing tasks for a long period like reading books.

Only thing that has helps is putting the device away but banking apps, TOTP, etc. makes it difficult.

But I have unsuccessfully tried DND, gray screen, etc.

There is research that reducing mobile usage by an hour a day improves wellbeing. But I don't know how to tackle this situation in a sustainable manner.

Re: How to Stare at Your Phone Without Losing Your Soul

#27

You can only replace an addiction with another (healthier) one. For instance: intense outdoor activity, time spent working in a farm, etc. The tech we’ve built is insanely addictive.

You could take up smoking. Problem is that you can smoke and zombie-phone at the same time ...

Re: How to Stare at Your Phone Without Losing Your Soul

#28

I am able to focus on work but even when I am super busy with work I will spend a lot of time on mobile. So it doesn't interfere with work but does interfere with health and overall well-being. I have removed all social media apps from my device including Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn. I don't use media streaming apps on mobile like YouTube. I do spend a lot of time reading on mobile that is helpful but it does tr…

Are there any apps or setting which reduce the saturation of colours? I notice that in many publicly available screens, such as in gyms, the saturation is extremely high drawing my attention to it. I find that this is also the case on my iPhone and Mac.

Certainly I can go monotone. But not desaturate partially.

Re: How to Stare at Your Phone Without Losing Your Soul

#29
post #23

I would've agreed some time ago. Today I think it's okay to not optimize everything for efficiency and it's also okay to waste some time on mindless things.

Yes, but phones are not those things that are okay, unless they're very well-manicured. It's not mindless, it's far more insidious than that. There are people vying for your attention. They are not doing it mindlessly, and they are not doing it for your benefit. Almost every mindless activity mankind has ever known hasn't required a phone-sized computer with a touch screen, but somehow that's nearly the only one peop…

In Tristan Harris' words: There's a supercomputer pointing at your brain.

Re: How to Stare at Your Phone Without Losing Your Soul

#30
post #7

But its more than that. I might visit Reddit and Hacker News, not because the app summoned me via notifications, but because my brain summoned the app, after just a 15 minute hiatus. The issue is that browser and certain apps are available to me on the phone instantly. And there are no good controls to help me me MINDFUL. What I want from the phone (I use an iPhone): - Upon every unlock, or upon every app open, I sho…

Hey, I'm the author of this small post. I was surprised to see it on HN.

> The issue is that browser and certain apps are available to me on the phone instantly.

I think you are right, and it has to do with decreasing UX friction: quick unlocks, overall performance, and muscle memory. I try to add some layers of friction, such as disabling tap to wake, or forcing password unlocks, or even browsers that offer a good but less smooth experience (eInkBro on Android could be one to try.

Overall, I think it helps me to go through apps occasionally and ask myself, “Is it an infinity app? Could I use this forever without content exhausting itself, or a purpose never being fulfilled?”

It's a demanding exercise in deliberate usage, and it can't always succeed (at least for me, I'm not that strong.)

I wish there were a good AOSP eInk phone to still use all the necessary everyday apps, but slower. The new Assistive Access simplified display mode seems very interesting on iOS from a UX perspective:

https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2023/05/apple-previews-live-s...

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