Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive • Hacker News Board

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#21

Post by feralchimp » Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 7:18 PM UTC

TL;DR - Just because you don't use the library doesn't mean no one needs them anymore. Not everyone's Real Life Issues are amenable to a self-service web portal, and that's not just because no one has built the right widgets yet.

> it will be a slow death by a thousand cuts

It will be a slow descent into budget fugue, followed by an extremely quick death when we pass an inflection point in "the number of people who remember getting awesome value out of their local/municipal library system."

I bet when a lot of people here first started hearing about library closures in their old neighborhood, or wherever they're living now, their initial reaction was one of total shock followed by "well I guess I can see how that could happen."

When people hear about library closures now, they could be skipping the shock entirely, passing smoothly through "aw that's too bad", and fading into "well there's Google."

> [the library] need[s] to become the center of civic engagement

We need a center of civic engagement with both equality and equity of access. Libraries are a decent foundation on which to build such a thing, but there's at least one common feature of libraries that makes them awful for this: people are supposed to be quiet in the library.

There should be almost nothing quiet about civic engagement, finding a job, learning new skills, research, etc. Less giant rooms with rows of people not saying anything; more smaller sound-proofed rooms with whiteboards and projectors. Like a giant executive briefing center, only with fewer executives and more regular folks with something to ask/teach each other.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#22

Post by philwelch » Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 7:20 PM UTC

54mf wrote: post #9

jph wrote: post #3

Excelllent view from the inside. The problem the article highlights is filling out gov't forms that have moved to the web; these are often just PDF scans. These gov't forms are often ripe for improvement via improved UX with step-by-step inputs, contextual help, and multi-language capabilities.

In my experience, practically anything to do with a government and technology is certain to be a terrible mess. Forms are just the tip of the iceberg; take a look at any interface created to "replace" a paper form. I haven't seen one that looked or functioned like it had been updated in a decade.

> take a look at any interface created to "replace" a paper form. I haven't seen one that looked or functioned like it had been updated in a decade.

The best example I can think of is tax software, and that's hardly changed in a decade. Sadly, most "replace a paper form" interfaces fall short even of that.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#23

Post by xenophanes » Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 7:21 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #20

xenophanes wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The libertarian stance is not "there should be no libraries" but more like "if there is a genuine need for libraries, and value in having them (quite plausible), then Government funding is not the best approach to creating them or running them efficiently". Just because something is good doesn't mean the tax payers should pay for it. There are other options. If they are a great idea, why not persuade people to volunt…

"if there is a genuine need for ____, and value in having them (quite plausible), then Government funding is not the best approach to creating them or running them efficiently". The problem with that argument is there is Nothing that get's past it. People talk about creating wealth like it exists in a vacuum but without the knowledge and resources that comes from living in society You can't create such things. Bill g…

The "get rid of society" mentality of some libertarians/anarchists is one of the reasons I do not call myself a libertarian.

However it's no reason to reject all libertarian or classical liberal type ideas. Just because society brings value, and Steve Jobs made his fortune in context, does not mean taxes should pay for all sorts of stuff or that it's necessary to either give up a third of my income or find for myself without tools or knowledge. That's a false dichotomy. It'd be possible to have a functional society, with knowledge and tools and so on, with a lot less being provided by taxes and more being provided by non-Government entities.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#24

Post by ltiaf » Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 7:21 PM UTC

xenophanes wrote: post #6

benwerd wrote: post #4

A thousand times this. I find the ultra-libertarian stance that our community sometimes takes to be counter to what web applications have been about. Are we empowering people or aren't we? Libraries are hugely important knowledge transfer hubs (and, as the MeFi commenter rightly says, community centers). Furthermore, selfishly, for us as builders, they're the only place a lot of people will ever come into contact wit…

The libertarian stance is not "there should be no libraries" but more like "if there is a genuine need for libraries, and value in having them (quite plausible), then Government funding is not the best approach to creating them or running them efficiently". Just because something is good doesn't mean the tax payers should pay for it. There are other options. If they are a great idea, why not persuade people to volunt…

I see the Libertarian stance essentially as a claim that people who are born into difficult circumstances deserve it wholly; and people who are born into good circumstances deserve it wholly.

Thus, we see heavy support for this philosophy from people who are fortunate enough to be born into a class of people who haven't spent much of their lives figuring out where they'll get their next meal, how they'll travel to work or school, or where they'll sleep that night. We see support for this philosophy from people whose skills happen to mesh strongly with the skills that are rewarded by our economy at this point in history.

Not everything that creates value makes money. In business we can often point to examples where excellent customer service increases the lifetime value of the customer, but if you attempted to charge the customer directly for that customer service, they'd revolt. Libraries have a similar function in that they create lifetime value for their customers, but because much of the value takes years to accumulate, many of the customers simply can't afford to pay it up-front.

While your arguments are straight out of the Libertarian playbook, that's their great problem. You want an every man for himself anarchy, but many of us prefer a society in which many large, useful things are handled out of the box for a nominal fee; and those of us who support that find it quite annoying that you want to make our lives harder and call it freedom, that you want to take away protection against circumstance and call it liberty.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#25

Post by intended » Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 7:21 PM UTC

urbanjunkie wrote: post #13

xenophanes wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The libertarian stance is not "there should be no libraries" but more like "if there is a genuine need for libraries, and value in having them (quite plausible), then Government funding is not the best approach to creating them or running them efficiently". Just because something is good doesn't mean the tax payers should pay for it. There are other options. If they are a great idea, why not persuade people to volunt…

> If they are a great idea, why not persuade people to voluntarily pay for them? Because, in this specific case, the people who most need libraries can often barely afford to pay for food and shelter. Libraries are such an obvious public good that I will never understand why they're not treated (both in the US and in the UK, and perhaps in other countries), as a basic and absolute necessity. [edited to add not which…

Libraries are good for the majority of people who can't afford them.

People who have the money to support them, don't need them.

By the time there are enough sufferers, and discontented others who create an externality where libraries are useful, the solution for those who can afford it is personal protection.

So as a result, libraries wont get funded.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#26

Post by intended » Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 7:23 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #15

pavs wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ust because something is good doesn't mean the tax payers should pay for it. There are other options. if you remove 'good' with 'useful', and it seems to me that this is exactly what tax payers should pay for. There are tons of useless shit tax money is used for, libraries is not one of them.

[deleted]

Wasting? How is it a waste in your opinion?

Edit: You are getting downvoted, so at least you should have a chance to explain your position.

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#27

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 7:23 PM UTC

pavs wrote: post #7

xenophanes wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The libertarian stance is not "there should be no libraries" but more like "if there is a genuine need for libraries, and value in having them (quite plausible), then Government funding is not the best approach to creating them or running them efficiently". Just because something is good doesn't mean the tax payers should pay for it. There are other options. If they are a great idea, why not persuade people to volunt…

> ust because something is good doesn't mean the tax payers should pay for it. There are other options. if you remove 'good' with 'useful', and it seems to me that this is exactly what tax payers should pay for. There are tons of useless shit tax money is used for, libraries is not one of them.

[deleted]

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#28

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 7:25 PM UTC

xenophanes wrote: post #6

benwerd wrote: post #4

A thousand times this. I find the ultra-libertarian stance that our community sometimes takes to be counter to what web applications have been about. Are we empowering people or aren't we? Libraries are hugely important knowledge transfer hubs (and, as the MeFi commenter rightly says, community centers). Furthermore, selfishly, for us as builders, they're the only place a lot of people will ever come into contact wit…

The libertarian stance is not "there should be no libraries" but more like "if there is a genuine need for libraries, and value in having them (quite plausible), then Government funding is not the best approach to creating them or running them efficiently". Just because something is good doesn't mean the tax payers should pay for it. There are other options. If they are a great idea, why not persuade people to volunt…

[deleted]

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#29

Post by skymt » Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 7:25 PM UTC

clintjhill wrote: post #16

xenophanes wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The libertarian stance is not "there should be no libraries" but more like "if there is a genuine need for libraries, and value in having them (quite plausible), then Government funding is not the best approach to creating them or running them efficiently". Just because something is good doesn't mean the tax payers should pay for it. There are other options. If they are a great idea, why not persuade people to volunt…

Police, Emergency and Fire departments are all "good" and "provide value" however they are not profitable. Nor do people run out to voluntarily pay for them. And there are a few cases where counties/municipalities created subscription like fees for these to the effect of somebody losing a house to a fire while the fire fighters stood to watch. This is the core of the problem with "no taxes" - principally it's good on…

Early fire departments were run by insurance companies to fight fires on their customers' properties. Those who couldn't afford insurance would be left to burn.

http://www.london-fire.gov.uk/FireMarksAndPayments.asp

Re: Every day at my job I helped people just barely survive

#30

Post by xenophanes » Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 7:26 PM UTC

urbanjunkie wrote: post #13

xenophanes wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The libertarian stance is not "there should be no libraries" but more like "if there is a genuine need for libraries, and value in having them (quite plausible), then Government funding is not the best approach to creating them or running them efficiently". Just because something is good doesn't mean the tax payers should pay for it. There are other options. If they are a great idea, why not persuade people to volunt…

> If they are a great idea, why not persuade people to voluntarily pay for them? Because, in this specific case, the people who most need libraries can often barely afford to pay for food and shelter. Libraries are such an obvious public good that I will never understand why they're not treated (both in the US and in the UK, and perhaps in other countries), as a basic and absolute necessity. [edited to add not which…

I meant persuade people with money to pay for them.

You value them. Why don't you pay something voluntarily? And a thousand other yous? Why doesn't Bill Gates throw some money at it if it's a super efficient use of resources?

He will, and many other non-poor people will, if they are persuaded it's a better use of their resources than Greenpeace, Oxfam, malaria medicine for Africa, clean water for Africa, and so on.

If such people can't be persuaded of this -- that it's an efficient use of resources -- then that's no time to send the tax man to take their money for this purpose and divert it away from the purposes they judge to be more important.