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Share of Americans skipping medical care due to money woes jumps significantly

arstechnica.com

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Re: Share of Americans skipping medical care due to money woes jumps significantly

#21

Post by reaperman »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #12
reaperman wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Welp. Guess we can't have taxpayer funded roads then cuz all the forced labor needed for free roads. Guess we also can't have a right to K-12 education.

You don't have the right to roads. Similarly education is mostly implemented at the state level, there's nothing legally preventing a state from saying that public school is now K-8 only. Laws requiring people to go to school are kind of a mixed bag, and compulsory education laws usually only apply to children (and in some cases only to pre-teens). AFAIK there's no legal forms of adult forced labor, except prisoners…

And yet despite being at the state level, all americans do have a right to K-12. Is that also forced labor?

Re: Share of Americans skipping medical care due to money woes jumps significantly

#22

Post by reaperman »

pfannkuchen wrote: post #13
reaperman wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am. But you dont make sense. All Americans have a right to K-12 education, it's funded by the government. How is that different from all Americans having a right to healthcare, being funded by the government? If someone doesn't wanna be in healthcare anymore they can still switch to whatever they want to. They're not forced labor any more than teachers are. Perhaps you'd like to sign a petition to lower forced labo…

There is fairly well developed theory in this area, I don’t think I’m going out on a limb here. Americans do not have a “right” to education in the same way they have a “right” to e.g. free speech. The government can reduce or even eliminate state funded education without violating the constitution. If not enough e.g. teachers will work for the state (for the pay offered, based on tax revenue available, etc), the sta…

This didn’t convince me that federally funded right to healthcare would be forced labor any more than federally funded anything else.

Re: Share of Americans skipping medical care due to money woes jumps significantly

#23

Post by dragonwriter »

pfannkuchen wrote: post #3
dfdg wrote: post #2

Encouraging generic drugs eases the problem a little bit. Right to health care should be in the constitution instead of right to own guns.

Health care requires other people’s labor though. If you make that a right you risk needing to implement some kind of forced labor system (sure it can be obfuscated as much as you like). Not taking guns doesn’t require anyone’s labor, so you don’t run into this hazard. I’m not particularly pro gun, I just don’t think positive rights are practical from a design perspective.

> Health care requires other people’s labor though. If you make that a right you risk needing to implement some kind of forced labor system

Whether that's true or not depends on the exact parameters of the right, and, in any case, the US has compulsory civic labor notwithstanding the 13th Amendment (jury service actively, conscription historically). Jury service direct relates to a positive right.

It also has positive rights which require labor but which somehow are not achieved by forced labor (voting, for instance, requires supporting labor.)

> I’m not particularly pro gun, I just don’t think positive rights are practical from a design perspective.

And yet, the US has positive rights, and the system hasn’t collapsed (e.g.,.the right to assistance of counsel in criminal cases, for instance, in addition to others previously listed.)

Re: Share of Americans skipping medical care due to money woes jumps significantly

#24

Post by dragonwriter »

pfannkuchen wrote: post #13
reaperman wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am. But you dont make sense. All Americans have a right to K-12 education, it's funded by the government. How is that different from all Americans having a right to healthcare, being funded by the government? If someone doesn't wanna be in healthcare anymore they can still switch to whatever they want to. They're not forced labor any more than teachers are. Perhaps you'd like to sign a petition to lower forced labo…

There is fairly well developed theory in this area, I don’t think I’m going out on a limb here. Americans do not have a “right” to education in the same way they have a “right” to e.g. free speech. The government can reduce or even eliminate state funded education without violating the constitution. If not enough e.g. teachers will work for the state (for the pay offered, based on tax revenue available, etc), the sta…

> Americans do not have a “right” to education in the same way they have a “right” to e.g. free speech.

OTOH, they do have a right to trial by jury, a right to counsel, and a right to vote in the sense that they have a right to free speech, and each of these rights require someone else’s labor.

Re: Share of Americans skipping medical care due to money woes jumps significantly

#25

Post by pfannkuchen »

reaperman wrote: post #21
Rebelgecko wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't have the right to roads. Similarly education is mostly implemented at the state level, there's nothing legally preventing a state from saying that public school is now K-8 only. Laws requiring people to go to school are kind of a mixed bag, and compulsory education laws usually only apply to children (and in some cases only to pre-teens). AFAIK there's no legal forms of adult forced labor, except prisoners…

And yet despite being at the state level, all americans do have a right to K-12. Is that also forced labor?

You don’t seem to understand what is meant by forced labor here. I am happy to explain it to you.

A right is something that can never be legally violated by the government.

It is possible for a health care system run by anyone to end up with a level of resources below what it would need to meet its commitments.

If government runs health care and health care is a right, then the government is not legally allowed to fail to meet its health care commitments. Doing so would violate the right to health care, and violating rights is illegal.

Therefore at that point the government must either compel resources be increased to match the commitment, regardless of any other factors, or cancel the right.

If our plan includes the potential for raising resources to an arbitrary level in certain circumstances regardless of all other factors at that point, then at that point we would by definition need to implement forced labor.

If our plan includes canceling a right under certain circumstances, then it is not really a right, is it?

Re: Share of Americans skipping medical care due to money woes jumps significantly

#27

Post by pfannkuchen »

dragonwriter wrote: post #24
pfannkuchen wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is fairly well developed theory in this area, I don’t think I’m going out on a limb here. Americans do not have a “right” to education in the same way they have a “right” to e.g. free speech. The government can reduce or even eliminate state funded education without violating the constitution. If not enough e.g. teachers will work for the state (for the pay offered, based on tax revenue available, etc), the sta…

> Americans do not have a “right” to education in the same way they have a “right” to e.g. free speech. OTOH, they do have a right to trial by jury, a right to counsel, and a right to vote in the sense that they have a right to free speech, and each of these rights require someone else’s labor.

Technically true, though not really a risk due to minuscule resources required to implement these. What percent of GDP do public defenders account for?

Re: Share of Americans skipping medical care due to money woes jumps significantly

#28

Post by winrid »

halfjoking wrote: post #26

[flagged]

Isn't that just an issue with the J&J vaccine?

Some of your points are perfectly valid but nobody is waging a war against the unvaccinated, other than bugging them to get vaccinated.

Both me and a parent have blood clotting disorders (hers worse than mine fwiw) and the vaccine wasn't an issue (Moderna and pfizer).

Was getting it a risk? Ya. But I saw enough people die from it and didn't want to spread the virus to other old people.

Re: Share of Americans skipping medical care due to money woes jumps significantly

#29

Post by halfjoking »

winrid wrote: post #28
halfjoking wrote: post #26

[flagged]

Isn't that just an issue with the J&J vaccine? Some of your points are perfectly valid but nobody is waging a war against the unvaccinated, other than bugging them to get vaccinated. Both me and a parent have blood clotting disorders (hers worse than mine fwiw) and the vaccine wasn't an issue (Moderna and pfizer). Was getting it a risk? Ya. But I saw enough people die from it and didn't want to spread the virus to ot…

I believe the vaccines killed a lot of people, not just J&J

https://wherearethenumbers.substack.com/p/the-devils-advocat...

My link above was about #ECMOGATE. The claim is that doctors were literally killing the unvaccinated by giving them different treatment plans that lead to more death.

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