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Not Even a Recession: The Great German Gas Debate in Retrospect [pdf]

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Re: Not Even a Recession: The Great German Gas Debate in Retrospect [pdf]

#21

Post by nr2x »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #10
sho_hn wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To this day so many people in Europe cannot engage in strategic thinking. Much more troubling: Few people worldwide have the attention span and stamina to read a text of the length of an academic paper and engage its contents. That this thread is for the moment mostly hurried comments desperate to control the message shows as much. And it's tightly related to inability to do strategic thinking.

>Much more troubling: Few people worldwide have the attention span and stamina to read a text of the length off an academic paper and engage its contents. You don't need to read academic papers to know that Russia = evil. Eastern Europe has been parroting this for decades but Germany stuck its fingers in its ears and went "la-la-la-la, I can't hear you over the sound of my cheap gas brokered by our lord and savior, G…

I literally cannot fathom how Germans still don’t see this. It’s a certain flavor of arrogance and greed to watch your neighbors be slaughtered and think “hey, we are getting cheap gas - surely this isn’t a problem”.

Germans like to say how much they learned from their history, but when shit got real they funded the aggressor and benefited from Putins corruption.

Re: Not Even a Recession: The Great German Gas Debate in Retrospect [pdf]

#22

Post by it_citizen »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #14
it_citizen wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very simplified. A lot of western countries, Germany first, believed that if we traded and opened up to those countries, they would naturally tend to adopt western values. It turned out to be incorrect. China being an even better example. But it was not a crazy assumption at the time, and coming after the fact is hindsight 20/20. Honestly, even knowing how things turned out, I am proud that the west tried.

>if we traded and opened up to those countries, they would naturally tend to adopt western values. You can't possibly tell me with a straight face that your argument is "Germany didn't know that Russia invading 3 countries was bad and it hoped Russia would come around if it just kept buying gas from them and pumping trillions in their economy which Russia spent on its military would make them more peaceful" . It's sa…

I am glad Germany didn't stop trading with the US after they invaded Irak by producing fake witnesses, or the second time by fabricating proofs, or Afghanistan.

Diplomacy is not black and white.

Re: Not Even a Recession: The Great German Gas Debate in Retrospect [pdf]

#23

Post by ivan_gammel »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #10
sho_hn wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To this day so many people in Europe cannot engage in strategic thinking. Much more troubling: Few people worldwide have the attention span and stamina to read a text of the length of an academic paper and engage its contents. That this thread is for the moment mostly hurried comments desperate to control the message shows as much. And it's tightly related to inability to do strategic thinking.

>Much more troubling: Few people worldwide have the attention span and stamina to read a text of the length off an academic paper and engage its contents. You don't need to read academic papers to know that Russia = evil. Eastern Europe has been parroting this for decades but Germany stuck its fingers in its ears and went "la-la-la-la, I can't hear you over the sound of my cheap gas brokered by our lord and savior, G…

[flagged]

Re: Not Even a Recession: The Great German Gas Debate in Retrospect [pdf]

#24

Post by Mlller »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #10
sho_hn wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To this day so many people in Europe cannot engage in strategic thinking. Much more troubling: Few people worldwide have the attention span and stamina to read a text of the length of an academic paper and engage its contents. That this thread is for the moment mostly hurried comments desperate to control the message shows as much. And it's tightly related to inability to do strategic thinking.

>Much more troubling: Few people worldwide have the attention span and stamina to read a text of the length off an academic paper and engage its contents. You don't need to read academic papers to know that Russia = evil. Eastern Europe has been parroting this for decades but Germany stuck its fingers in its ears and went "la-la-la-la, I can't hear you over the sound of my cheap gas brokered by our lord and savior, G…

“Eastern Europe has been parroting […] Germany stuck its fingers in its ears”

Or perhaps Germany couldnʼt hear them, because their actions spoke louder than their words – a majority of Eastern European countries had made themselves more dependent on Russian gas than Germany:

  - Hungary: 110.4 percent 
  - Latvia: 100.1 percent 
  - Finland: 92.4 percent 
  - Estonia: 86.5 percent 
  - Czechia: 86.0 percent 
  - Slovenia: 81.0 percent 
  - Slovakia: 75.2 percent 
  - Bulgaria: 72.8 percent 
  - Germany: 58.9 percent
“Some of the countries have a figure above 100 because they import more than required for domestic consumption and export other energy products.” per https://thehill.com/policy/equilibrium-sustainability/326055...

Re: Not Even a Recession: The Great German Gas Debate in Retrospect [pdf]

#25

Post by nr2x »

it_citizen wrote: post #12
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Much more troubling: Few people worldwide have the attention span and stamina to read a text of the length off an academic paper and engage its contents. You don't need to read academic papers to know that Russia = evil. Eastern Europe has been parroting this for decades but Germany stuck its fingers in its ears and went "la-la-la-la, I can't hear you over the sound of my cheap gas brokered by our lord and savior, G…

This is very simplified. A lot of western countries, Germany first, believed that if we traded and opened up to those countries, they would naturally tend to adopt western values. It turned out to be incorrect. China being an even better example. But it was not a crazy assumption at the time, and coming after the fact is hindsight 20/20. Honestly, even knowing how things turned out, I am proud that the west tried.

And yet the USA and Poland were screaming at the top of their lungs to not do nord stream and the German public didn’t care. At all.

Re: Not Even a Recession: The Great German Gas Debate in Retrospect [pdf]

#26

Post by permo-w »

it_citizen wrote: post #12
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Much more troubling: Few people worldwide have the attention span and stamina to read a text of the length off an academic paper and engage its contents. You don't need to read academic papers to know that Russia = evil. Eastern Europe has been parroting this for decades but Germany stuck its fingers in its ears and went "la-la-la-la, I can't hear you over the sound of my cheap gas brokered by our lord and savior, G…

This is very simplified. A lot of western countries, Germany first, believed that if we traded and opened up to those countries, they would naturally tend to adopt western values. It turned out to be incorrect. China being an even better example. But it was not a crazy assumption at the time, and coming after the fact is hindsight 20/20. Honestly, even knowing how things turned out, I am proud that the west tried.

did we really think that or was it just a rationalisation of the desire for profit?

Re: Not Even a Recession: The Great German Gas Debate in Retrospect [pdf]

#27

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #23
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Much more troubling: Few people worldwide have the attention span and stamina to read a text of the length off an academic paper and engage its contents. You don't need to read academic papers to know that Russia = evil. Eastern Europe has been parroting this for decades but Germany stuck its fingers in its ears and went "la-la-la-la, I can't hear you over the sound of my cheap gas brokered by our lord and savior, G…

[flagged]

>Russia invading Chechnya is like USA invading Texas.

Chechnya was an independent country in 1991, as was Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, Belarus and other ex-USSR republics post 1991. It had no right invading Chechnya.

Re: Not Even a Recession: The Great German Gas Debate in Retrospect [pdf]

#28

Post by hrefgtd »

sounds wrote: post #18
mperham wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: Moreover, the country did not simply get lucky with particularly mild winter temperatures, as often alleged. The average winter temperature in the 2022/23 winter of 2.9°C was actually slightly colder than the average temperature over the four previous winters.

It's possible to have a lower mean temperature and still use less total heat. Stats, right? E.g. if the temperature is warmer at night.

[flagged]

Re: Not Even a Recession: The Great German Gas Debate in Retrospect [pdf]

#29

Post by ivan_gammel »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #14
it_citizen wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very simplified. A lot of western countries, Germany first, believed that if we traded and opened up to those countries, they would naturally tend to adopt western values. It turned out to be incorrect. China being an even better example. But it was not a crazy assumption at the time, and coming after the fact is hindsight 20/20. Honestly, even knowing how things turned out, I am proud that the west tried.

>if we traded and opened up to those countries, they would naturally tend to adopt western values. You can't possibly tell me with a straight face that your argument is "Germany didn't know that Russia invading 3 countries was bad and it hoped Russia would come around if it just kept buying gas from them and pumping trillions in their economy which Russia spent on its military would make them more peaceful" . It's sa…

Germany did not ignore Russian military invasions, which can be easily demonstrated by specific actions that German government took at that time. Notably those actions were not much different from what USA or other European countries except a few with anti-Russian paranoia did. Besides, there were two, not three invasions. Chechnya is not a country.

Re: Not Even a Recession: The Great German Gas Debate in Retrospect [pdf]

#30

Post by it_citizen »

permo-w wrote: post #26
it_citizen wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is very simplified. A lot of western countries, Germany first, believed that if we traded and opened up to those countries, they would naturally tend to adopt western values. It turned out to be incorrect. China being an even better example. But it was not a crazy assumption at the time, and coming after the fact is hindsight 20/20. Honestly, even knowing how things turned out, I am proud that the west tried.

did we really think that or was it just a rationalisation of the desire for profit?

Good point. I think both?

Nations are not single minded. Political parties, individuals, companies, diplomats, each might have their own particular interest.

But I remember not long ago, "trade and free market will bring democratic institutions" being a pretty popular opinion.

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