Live data from Hacker News

First clean water, now clean air

finmoorhouse.com

21–30 of 149 posts

Re: First clean water, now clean air

#21

If, hypothetically, we dramatically reduced the prevalence of airborne disease, what would the effect on our immune systems be? Some hypothesize that living in too sterile an environment leads to autoimmune diseases, since the immune system is calibrated to a certain baseline level of activity, and will turn on the body if this level is not met by external pathogens.

If that turned out to be the case, maybe we could have annual "vaccines", which would exist only to trigger anti-viral activity?

Re: First clean water, now clean air

#22

If, hypothetically, we dramatically reduced the prevalence of airborne disease, what would the effect on our immune systems be? Some hypothesize that living in too sterile an environment leads to autoimmune diseases, since the immune system is calibrated to a certain baseline level of activity, and will turn on the body if this level is not met by external pathogens.

If it turns out that actual pathogens are necessary, and we can't use the kinds of harmless bacteria that get sold as "probiotics", it would still be better to identify pathogens with optimal risk:benefit ratio and determine the optimal dose. Exposure to wild pathogens varies widely, so very few people will be lucky enough to have the best exposure.

Re: First clean water, now clean air

#23
post #4

I bought a CO2 monitor, and although the effects of CO2 in cognition and energy levels are debatable[1], it shocked me and raised awareness to how poor my indoor ventilation is. We live in a small apartment, and just being 30 min with 2 people in the room raises the CO2 ppm from 400 to >1000. Opening a window quickly lowers it. Never-mind doing some light activity like yoga or similar. So if we want to do something,…

> So if we want to do something, I think the first step is really to get visibility to the problem A sensible first step would be to very visibly display CO₂ monitors in buildings (e.g., throughout office buildings, schools, etc) Once the CO₂ levels become visible, this in itself creates an incentive to improve. Related from UK (2021): "All schools to receive carbon dioxide monitors" - https://www.gov.uk/government/n…

In Japan, it is common to see CO₂ monitor displays outside contained meeting spaces, such as theaters.

My wife purchased an Aronet CO₂ monitor, and I took it with me on a business trip last week. The CO₂ while on the flight was in the 3000's range. The CO₂ at my client's office was in the mid 2000's range, as well as the hotel. Opening the hotel window the allowed 2 inches reduces CO₂ to the 600 range in 10 minutes, but the client's office windows do not open, and of course neither do the airplane windows.

I've also noticed when working indoors or when driving, if the CO₂ is above 1500 I get drowsy, so the degree it is no longer responsible driving a car.

Air safety: are we going to fight a moronic battle over this too?

Re: First clean water, now clean air

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If possible, I recommend ventilation by creating a current by opening the front door and cycling every room (windos, balcony doors) of your apartment. I do this every day regardless of the season. Works best during windy weather

*watch out for slamming doors and windows :-) Took me ages to work out how best to perform such in my place, and yes - daily opening, even for 5 minutes - does seem to help (me). I also do it last thing at night. In the morning - a less stuffy apartment. On work days, I'll probably open for a few minutes before going to work, but definitely after getting home.

I use mostly chairs and pillows to prevent doors from slamming. What challenges did you meet at your place?

Re: First clean water, now clean air

#25
I wish the author had spent more time to unfold the public vs private debate here:

>if a country installed all the measures I mentioned

As opposed to the wastewater infrastructure in the first section that can be mandated and put in motion by a government, it's up to individuals and institutions to install the measures.

This makes implementation significantly more challenging, as it relies on the collective efforts and cooperation of numerous parties, each with their own priorities and resources. Government-led initiatives, on the other hand, can be more easily streamlined and enforced, ensuring a higher degree of compliance and effectiveness.

Re: First clean water, now clean air

#26
post #8

I bought a CO2 monitor, and although the effects of CO2 in cognition and energy levels are debatable[1], it shocked me and raised awareness to how poor my indoor ventilation is. We live in a small apartment, and just being 30 min with 2 people in the room raises the CO2 ppm from 400 to >1000. Opening a window quickly lowers it. Never-mind doing some light activity like yoga or similar. So if we want to do something,…

> , it shocked me and raised awareness to how poor my indoor ventilation is. Do you want indoor circulation? Wouldn't that just mean your apartment loses heat/AC?

Yes, ventilation causes heat losses, but it is necessary.

There are ways around it though. The simplest is to not make sure ventilation goes where it needs to go. Modern buildings use mechanical ventilation to make sure every living space gets properly ventilated so one room doesn't get too much and another too little. Even better, some building use heat exchangers to heat/cool the incoming air with outgoing air, minimizing losses. Other techniques involve passing the fresh air underground, which, in a temperate climate gets you some free heating in the winter and free cooling in the summer.

Obviously, to limit heat losses, you want to reduce conduction and radiation too, which can be done without sacrificing ventilation.

Re: First clean water, now clean air

#27

It doesn't take away from the general thrust of the post but it's interesting that lack of quality sewage treatment leading to it being dumped into rivers is thought to be a key issue in the current British council voting: Local elections 2023: How sewage topped the political agenda https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-65190097

The Victorian-era sewage systems described in this article are actually one of the key reasons that sewage is ending up in rivers and the sea in the first place. Notice how they worked: sewage was collected, pumped, and dumped downstream of London. It was not treated. Most of the UK's sewage treatment is retrofitted to sewage systems that were never designed to have it. This causes various problems, the main one being that rainwater drainage and sewage are mixed in many areas and this overwhelms the sewage system during heavy rain.

(As for why it became a key election issue, well, basically the British press lied to make it one - the BBC included. They made an increase in monitoring of sewage discharges look like a massive increase in sewage discharged whilst tricking people into thinking monitoring had got worse by deceptively-worded articles about the few overflows that weren't monitored yet, they told people the Environmental Agency was lying about only recently being able to measure the full extent of sewage discharges based on a hnadful of previously-recorded incidents, they claimed other European countries which still had Victorian-esque sewage systems with no treatment plants that just pumped directly into their rivers and seas in some urban areas were doing a better job, and so on.)

Re: First clean water, now clean air

#28
post #9

I bought a CO2 monitor, and although the effects of CO2 in cognition and energy levels are debatable[1], it shocked me and raised awareness to how poor my indoor ventilation is. We live in a small apartment, and just being 30 min with 2 people in the room raises the CO2 ppm from 400 to >1000. Opening a window quickly lowers it. Never-mind doing some light activity like yoga or similar. So if we want to do something,…

I don't understand why you are being downvoted, you raise a good point. Based on some HN comment from a while ago I invested in a CO2 meter (they are still quite expensive for some reason). And I share the same experience, CO2 levels can raise rapidly indoors, but simply turning on ventilation or opening a window very quickly lowers CO2 contents. Using the meter I found CO2 levels in my bedroom can become quite high…

I'm starting to think that having a better night's rest while sleeping in a tent is not from the ground you sleep on, but the fresh air you've had all night.

Re: First clean water, now clean air

#29
post #4

I bought a CO2 monitor, and although the effects of CO2 in cognition and energy levels are debatable[1], it shocked me and raised awareness to how poor my indoor ventilation is. We live in a small apartment, and just being 30 min with 2 people in the room raises the CO2 ppm from 400 to >1000. Opening a window quickly lowers it. Never-mind doing some light activity like yoga or similar. So if we want to do something,…

> So if we want to do something, I think the first step is really to get visibility to the problem A sensible first step would be to very visibly display CO₂ monitors in buildings (e.g., throughout office buildings, schools, etc) Once the CO₂ levels become visible, this in itself creates an incentive to improve. Related from UK (2021): "All schools to receive carbon dioxide monitors" - https://www.gov.uk/government/n…

Before I stopped being in offices I was looking for a portable CO2 monitor to take into meetings to see how quickly we ended up at 1000+ppm. The tendency to overcrowd meeting rooms I was convinced was basically a driver in devaluing them - the CO2 is going up and up and up and people's cognition is slowly ebbing alongside regular old fatigue.
Post reply on HN