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Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

flatfootfox.com

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Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#21

Post by microtonal »

precompute wrote: post #19
microtonal wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has made a bunch of keyboards (including hand wiring), I agree that the space is very hard to navigate. Especially since /r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ has gone full "the only ergonomic keyboard is a hand-soldered keyboard that only 50 other people use", while for most people a prebuilt ergo keyboard would be fine and a large improvement over a $15 black slab. What makes it worse is that most designs do no have…

There's no one-size-fits-all ergo keyboard, which is why the dactyl has a configurator. You need to make test prints for your hand / finger / thumb size and splay and decide accordingly. Same for the other non-bowl keyboards like corne/lily58/etc, some people just can't use them. I've been using a corne for two years with absolutely no pain/issues (not that I had any issues before I started using it, though)

There's no one-size-fits-all ergo keyboard, which is why the dactyl has a configurator.

This is a bit of a trope in places like /r/ErgoMechKeyboards/. However, it's a bit of an empty statement without further data. Of course hand sizes/shapes differ, but the question is if they differ enough to preclude designs that work for a majority of the population. If you look at e.g. hand length/width datasets, within a group (e.g. men) these are close to a normal distribution. And the spread is not that large. e.g. the different in hand width in the ANSUR II 2012 dataset is 0.6cm between the 25th and the 75th percentile for men. The difference in hand length is 1.3 cm between the 25th and 75th percentile.

So, it's very likely to be possible to design a keyboard that fits most people well enough. Sure, if your hand size is an outlier you may have to get creative.

Besides that, there is also some latitude in designing ergo keyboards for multiple hand sizes. See eg. how Moergo iterated for several years so come up with a design that works for many different hand sizes [1].

[1] https://www.moergo.com/pages/glove80-ergonomic-keyboard-desi...

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#22

Post by microtonal »

leononame wrote: post #13
microtonal wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has made a bunch of keyboards (including hand wiring), I agree that the space is very hard to navigate. Especially since /r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ has gone full "the only ergonomic keyboard is a hand-soldered keyboard that only 50 other people use", while for most people a prebuilt ergo keyboard would be fine and a large improvement over a $15 black slab. What makes it worse is that most designs do no have…

I'm really looking for a good ergonomic keyboard right now (split or non-split). I'm using Redox, but the bamboo case is falling apart and sometimes I miss F-keys (it'd be nice to one-shot steps during debugging rather than having to press a key combination) or a physical numpad (for entering numbers I prefer the numpad, but I just don't love switching layers). The Ergo K860 looks nice. I've also been eyeing the Kine…

Would you say not having ortholinear keys is a big difference for ergonomics?

I don't think there is much proof in terms of scientific studies that column stagger is better (column stagger is usually preferable over ortholinear), so can only really give my personal experience. I strongly prefer column stagger, I can still type row stagger and sometimes use my laptop's keyboard when I travel, but all these lateral movements feel awkward now.

I've also been eyeing the Kinesis Advantage 360

The 360 is really nice (I have a 360 Pro), but I'd order it somewhere where you can return it easily (eg. Kinesis themselves). For me, the Gateron Browns in the 360 are quite a large regression compared to the Cherry Browns in the Advantage2. The Gaterons are smoother, but their actuation point is way lower. Gateron specs say 2mm, but it's closer to 3mm in practice. This makes typing on the 360 quite tiring for me. So it's mostly collecting dust currently (I am using the Advantage2 and the Model 100 most of the time). But this is really personal, some other people do like the Gateron switches.

I wrote up a short review of the 360 Pro here:

https://danieldk.eu/Posts/2023-04-15-Advantage-360-Pro.html

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#23

Post by goosedragons »

leononame wrote: post #13
microtonal wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has made a bunch of keyboards (including hand wiring), I agree that the space is very hard to navigate. Especially since /r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ has gone full "the only ergonomic keyboard is a hand-soldered keyboard that only 50 other people use", while for most people a prebuilt ergo keyboard would be fine and a large improvement over a $15 black slab. What makes it worse is that most designs do no have…

I'm really looking for a good ergonomic keyboard right now (split or non-split). I'm using Redox, but the bamboo case is falling apart and sometimes I miss F-keys (it'd be nice to one-shot steps during debugging rather than having to press a key combination) or a physical numpad (for entering numbers I prefer the numpad, but I just don't love switching layers). The Ergo K860 looks nice. I've also been eyeing the Kine…

I really like my regular Kinesis Advantage 2 which does have F-keys although admittedly small ones. I don't use them too much. They are easy to reach which I like though.

I think having Ortho layout makes using the numpad on the Kinesis a lot better. The big ergo benefit to me is the thumb clusters and the fact I can remap keys like (),[],{},~ to be easier to press. I have setup the "delete" key on the thumb cluster to be a layer shift and moved symbols to easier to press fingers than ridiculous pinky extensions. The numpad is also easy to use since I just hit delete and then it's already under my right hand and I don't have to move it. Since it's Ortho it feels like a numpad. Previously I never really used the numpad because I didn't like moving my hand over but now most of my numbers are typed that way.

I don't think MS/Logitech boards go far enough even in the split department.

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#24

Post by ceoloide »

Check out the Samoklava GitHub repository (https://github.com/soundmonster/samoklava) for an example of auto-generated and auto-routed board leveraging Ergogen.

I am following on the steps of FlatFootFox to replicate the Corne (Cherry) in code, WIP for the moment: https://github.com/ceoloide/corney-island

Don't forget to support the creator of Ergogen, MrZealot: https://github.com/sponsors/mrzealot

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#26

Post by CarVac »

microtonal wrote: post #21
precompute wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no one-size-fits-all ergo keyboard, which is why the dactyl has a configurator. You need to make test prints for your hand / finger / thumb size and splay and decide accordingly. Same for the other non-bowl keyboards like corne/lily58/etc, some people just can't use them. I've been using a corne for two years with absolutely no pain/issues (not that I had any issues before I started using it, though)

There's no one-size-fits-all ergo keyboard, which is why the dactyl has a configurator. This is a bit of a trope in places like /r/ErgoMechKeyboards/. However, it's a bit of an empty statement without further data. Of course hand sizes/shapes differ, but the question is if they differ enough to preclude designs that work for a majority of the population. If you look at e.g. hand length/width datasets, within a group…

Hand width and size are not the only things to take into account.

The resting curl of your hand is important, as is relative finger lengths (particularly of the pinky).

And then there's resting thumb position relative to the fingers.

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#27

Post by bloopernova »

lars_francke wrote: post #4

I've been too afraid of asking on Reddit. I'd love a split keyboard with an integrated trackball but the community is creating an overwhelming amount of new content and products. I have not been able to find a good entry point. The threads often reference shops, specific people, firmwares or discord communities without going into details. Does anyone happen to know a good resource for how and where to get started tod…

My advice to you is to get either a Keychron Q10 or Q11, then get a Ploopy trackball to place between/below the keyboard.

https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q11-qmk-custom-me...

https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q10-alice-layout-...

https://ploopy.co/mini-trackball/ I have a Keychron Q10 and program it with the "via" software, which works great. I also have a Ploopy mouse, which requires QMK compilation to customize. That worked out great for me, because I love tinkering.

It's really difficult to encapsulate all that goes into a keyboard and mouse/trackball, like you said the communities create huge amounts of information, commentary, and designs. Which is why companies like Keychron are doing great work creating "layman" accessible keyboards.

QMK is literally compiling C code into firmware. You can leave off LED effects if you want, use complex macros, rules, and layers, or cut out everything that you don't use. I mentioned my mouse earlier: it has 2 layers, the second of which is accessed by holding down a button. That gives me access to almost twice as many buttons! I have a volume control on my mouse's second layer, plus "paste plain text on MacOS". Very cool stuff and incredibly useful!

Via is a QMK that is designed to be updated without the C toolchain present. It uses an Electron front end and is pretty straightforward to use. Obviously it's more restricted in what it can do, but I think it covers 99.9% of use cases.

I wish I could write more, but I have to go for surgery. If you ask questions here, I should be able to respond by late evening US eastern time May 1st.

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#28

Post by patrickpkt »

lars_francke wrote: post #4

I've been too afraid of asking on Reddit. I'd love a split keyboard with an integrated trackball but the community is creating an overwhelming amount of new content and products. I have not been able to find a good entry point. The threads often reference shops, specific people, firmwares or discord communities without going into details. Does anyone happen to know a good resource for how and where to get started tod…

https://www.etsy.com/shop/Wylderbuilds is a place I've used in the past. They sell parts and completed keyboards, but also have a link out to github with their modifications, at https://github.com/bullwinkle3000/dactyl-keyboard. The whole dactyl space is definitely a rabbit hole, though.

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#29

Post by [deleted] »

leononame wrote: post #13
microtonal wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has made a bunch of keyboards (including hand wiring), I agree that the space is very hard to navigate. Especially since /r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ has gone full "the only ergonomic keyboard is a hand-soldered keyboard that only 50 other people use", while for most people a prebuilt ergo keyboard would be fine and a large improvement over a $15 black slab. What makes it worse is that most designs do no have…

I'm really looking for a good ergonomic keyboard right now (split or non-split). I'm using Redox, but the bamboo case is falling apart and sometimes I miss F-keys (it'd be nice to one-shot steps during debugging rather than having to press a key combination) or a physical numpad (for entering numbers I prefer the numpad, but I just don't love switching layers). The Ergo K860 looks nice. I've also been eyeing the Kine…

[deleted]

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#30

Post by coldpie »

lars_francke wrote: post #14
microtonal wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has made a bunch of keyboards (including hand wiring), I agree that the space is very hard to navigate. Especially since /r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ has gone full "the only ergonomic keyboard is a hand-soldered keyboard that only 50 other people use", while for most people a prebuilt ergo keyboard would be fine and a large improvement over a $15 black slab. What makes it worse is that most designs do no have…

Thank you very much for the detailed response. I'll look at all those options. I've been using a Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 for ages and it is slowly disintegrating so I'll need a replacement in the next few years. The quality has been great. It's lasted 15 or so years now. I switched to an optimized keyboard layout (neo2 - German) in 2006 when I had carpal tunnel syndrome in both hands and then also s…

Check out the Feker Alice 98. It just came out (my pre-order arrived just last Friday) and is an excellent modern recreation of my favorite keyboard, the Microsoft Natural line of keyboards from circa 2000. There's a separate model without the numpad, if you don't use that (I do).

Complaints? No Home/End. The extra B on the right side is weird. The proximity of the arrow keys means sometimes I hit the left arrow-key when pressing backspace. But those are all easy to adjust to, I think. I'm excited to finally have a good, modern replacement for the Natural keyboards. Highly recommend this one.

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