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The Madness in our Methods: Crash of GW9525 and our broken aeromedical system

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Re: The Madness in our Methods: Crash of GW9525 and our broken aeromedical system

#21

Post by SoftTalker »

It's impossible to eliminate all possibility of a crazy person doing massive harm. The kind of regulation that would require would be intolerable to civilized society.

Sometimes these things happen, it's almost like a random mechanical failure that takes down an airplane.

Maybe one day when we get AI good enough to fly an airplane on its own we can eliminate that. Assuming that such an AI is 100% predictable and reliable and isn't subject to psychosis or hallucinations, which may or may not be achievable.

Re: The Madness in our Methods: Crash of GW9525 and our broken aeromedical system

#22

Post by markps »

ericpauley wrote: post #13
leetrout wrote: post #4

I briefly held a student pilots license, issued my exemption, due to kidney stones. I have suffered from depression for years and was extremely reluctant to seek treatment because I knew it would be detrimental to flying. My primary care doctor had me try lexapro in 2018 and even though I hadn't flown in 2 years I protested but reluctantly agreed I needed to do something and it was unlikely I would ever fly as a priv…

The situation has improved dramatically in the part 91 world. If you received a 3rd class (including special issuance) within the past 10 years you can likely now do BasicMed as long as your condition is well managed. Might be worth looking into before the 10 year limit expires.

Just so no one gets discouraged, there is no 10 year limit. You can get BasicMed as long as you’ve held a 3rd class medical after July 14, 2006.

https://www.faa.gov/licenses_certificates/airmen_certificati...

Re: The Madness in our Methods: Crash of GW9525 and our broken aeromedical system

#23

Post by bsder »

SoftTalker wrote: post #21

It's impossible to eliminate all possibility of a crazy person doing massive harm. The kind of regulation that would require would be intolerable to civilized society. Sometimes these things happen, it's almost like a random mechanical failure that takes down an airplane. Maybe one day when we get AI good enough to fly an airplane on its own we can eliminate that. Assuming that such an AI is 100% predictable and reli…

The problem that prevented any solutions was the reinforced door. The security theatre was worse than theatre--it backfired.

At this point, the flight crews are a bigger threat to passengers than terrorists. Since passengers won't sit still for a hijacking anymore, terrorists effectively aren't a threat.

You don't need a heavily reinforced door. You only need one that prevents entry for a few seconds while the passengers figure out that they need to subdue the attacker.

Re: The Madness in our Methods: Crash of GW9525 and our broken aeromedical system

#24

Post by dghlsakjg »

wly_cdgr wrote: post #8

Sounds like an ethics problem more than a regulatory system problem. The long term solution is not reducing the incentive to lie, it's better and more extensive moral education to increase personal reluctance to lie. Why is that the better solution? Because it has profound benefits that extend far beyond this specific scenario / industry.

Would you withhold your medical information from your employer for hundreds of thousands of dollars? Because that’s what’s happening here. A pilot career can cost more than $100k in training and years of doing work for what basically amounts to minimum wage. At the end of it you end up with a skill set that is very valuable, but not very transferable to other careers.

So let’s reframe it as: should we expect people to tell the truth about things that mostly don’t matter at a personal cost of their entire career, and all training costs?

If you disclose, you are punished severely and may never go to work again with almost no recourse by a system which largely ignores medical science. If you withhold, as almost all pilots are advised by colleagues and the doctors themselves to do, nothing happens. (When I went for an aviation medical, the doctor said: I’m not your family doctor, only answer the question I asked. If I need more information I can ask for it)

When faced by a system so perverse is it really all that unethical.

Re: The Madness in our Methods: Crash of GW9525 and our broken aeromedical system

#25

Post by quest88 »

ryandrake wrote: post #20
imoverclocked wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like learned helplessness. Of course there is something they can do. There are a lot of things they can do to become better. The medical profession is almost unrecognizable from what it was in the 1950s. My grandfather (MD) said as much 15 years ago before passing away. It has only changed more since then. The FAA’s policies are based on 1950s medical knowledge and opinions. If you spend any significant t…

> People who had a diagnosis of ADHD as a kid (when getting diagnosed with it was all the rage) have to jump through insane hoops if they disclose that on their FAA medical. The FAA could change this instantly by simply abandoning their “have you ever” language and focusing on whether or not the pilot currently requires medication for a condition. The government just loves those “have you ever” questions, though, as…

Of course, they want to avoid blame, or they risk losing their job.

Re: The Madness in our Methods: Crash of GW9525 and our broken aeromedical system

#26

Post by wly_cdgr »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #24
wly_cdgr wrote: post #8

Sounds like an ethics problem more than a regulatory system problem. The long term solution is not reducing the incentive to lie, it's better and more extensive moral education to increase personal reluctance to lie. Why is that the better solution? Because it has profound benefits that extend far beyond this specific scenario / industry.

Would you withhold your medical information from your employer for hundreds of thousands of dollars? Because that’s what’s happening here. A pilot career can cost more than $100k in training and years of doing work for what basically amounts to minimum wage. At the end of it you end up with a skill set that is very valuable, but not very transferable to other careers. So let’s reframe it as: should we expect people t…

Yes, we should expect people to tell the truth.

Re: The Madness in our Methods: Crash of GW9525 and our broken aeromedical system

#27

Post by wly_cdgr »

ledauphin wrote: post #12
wly_cdgr wrote: post #8

Sounds like an ethics problem more than a regulatory system problem. The long term solution is not reducing the incentive to lie, it's better and more extensive moral education to increase personal reluctance to lie. Why is that the better solution? Because it has profound benefits that extend far beyond this specific scenario / industry.

Ethics is not reducible to "learning not to lie." There's also "not using sweeping generalizations to dramatically affect individual's lives" and "using authority the way it was intended instead of shrinking from the responsibility granted by the will of the people" and a whole other host of ethical issues that apply to the various aeronautical administrations. Brainwashing alone does not an ethical system make. You…

Exactly (re: your last sentence), which is a very big part of why you should not lie. It is no good to say "well, the system / another person did something bad, so I get to do something bad also". You have to take responsibility and do the right thing anyway. That is the whole heart and essence of ethics. Without people who are willing to do that, everything quickly goes down the drain in a filthy spiral of degradation.

Re: The Madness in our Methods: Crash of GW9525 and our broken aeromedical system

#28

Post by WalterBright »

One solution could be to provide a largish tool to open the door, and place the tool all the way aft. A hijacker would have to run a gauntlet of all the passengers to retrieve the obvious tool, passengers who know they have to stop him.

Re: The Madness in our Methods: Crash of GW9525 and our broken aeromedical system

#29

Post by throwaway173738 »

ryandrake wrote: post #20
imoverclocked wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sounds like learned helplessness. Of course there is something they can do. There are a lot of things they can do to become better. The medical profession is almost unrecognizable from what it was in the 1950s. My grandfather (MD) said as much 15 years ago before passing away. It has only changed more since then. The FAA’s policies are based on 1950s medical knowledge and opinions. If you spend any significant t…

> People who had a diagnosis of ADHD as a kid (when getting diagnosed with it was all the rage) have to jump through insane hoops if they disclose that on their FAA medical. The FAA could change this instantly by simply abandoning their “have you ever” language and focusing on whether or not the pilot currently requires medication for a condition. The government just loves those “have you ever” questions, though, as…

Or MEPS.

Re: The Madness in our Methods: Crash of GW9525 and our broken aeromedical system

#30

Post by dghlsakjg »

wly_cdgr wrote: post #26
dghlsakjg wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you withhold your medical information from your employer for hundreds of thousands of dollars? Because that’s what’s happening here. A pilot career can cost more than $100k in training and years of doing work for what basically amounts to minimum wage. At the end of it you end up with a skill set that is very valuable, but not very transferable to other careers. So let’s reframe it as: should we expect people t…

Yes, we should expect people to tell the truth.

We should expect government agencies to follow medical science when making medical decisions, yet here we are.
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