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Why it’s so hard to say what you mean

ammarmian.substack.com

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Re: Why it’s so hard to say what you mean

#21

Post by corobo »

kuhzaam wrote: post #12
PeterWhittaker wrote: post #10

It seems the author may be on the verge of discovering vulnerability and openness. Opening yourself to others brings connection, empathy, humility, sincerity, and growth. It does a good job of getting rid of the last vestiges of TFA’s I-V, too. Of course, it can also be scary, but the rewards are tremendous.

Any material you’d recommend on this topic? It’s a topic that I’ve been thinking about a lot to try and reform myself from being such a people pleaser.

These two books really helped sand down my people pleasing ways

- No More Mr Nice Guy by Robert Glover

- I Used to Be a Miserable F*ck by John Kim

Re: Why it’s so hard to say what you mean

#22

Post by kevviiinn »

akomtu wrote: post #18
drewcoo wrote: post #2

Um . . . it's not. It's just hard to understand what all those allistic people mean. Why do they say false things all the time and why is that socially normal? How is falsehood the acceptable norm but not truth? Things like this article try to construct frameworks for the falsehoods. Boo! Boo! /self throws rotten tomatoes Boo!

Allistic? You mean "normal"? They can reflect others in their mind and see how their words change those reflections. Some take it too far and their inner world is a room with mirrored walls: they see many reflections of reflections, distorted by warped mirrors and they make their speech look straight in those reflections. The result is a tall pile of lies. Autists, on the other hand, have a brick wall in place of the…

>Some take it too far and their inner world is a room with mirrored walls

That sounds like a mental disorder

Re: Why it’s so hard to say what you mean

#23

Post by PeterWhittaker »

kuhzaam wrote: post #12
PeterWhittaker wrote: post #10

It seems the author may be on the verge of discovering vulnerability and openness. Opening yourself to others brings connection, empathy, humility, sincerity, and growth. It does a good job of getting rid of the last vestiges of TFA’s I-V, too. Of course, it can also be scary, but the rewards are tremendous.

Any material you’d recommend on this topic? It’s a topic that I’ve been thinking about a lot to try and reform myself from being such a people pleaser.

I got there acting, especially on stage. I started about 15 years ago, in community theatre and indie movies.

At first, it was just for the fun, it’s an amazing feeling, but over time it became more about the collaboration and trust with my scene partners, regardless of the role: the more you open up to each other, the better the result.

Re: Why it’s so hard to say what you mean

#24

Post by mock-possum »

watwut wrote: post #19
jiggawatts wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, non-autistic people (apparently called "allistic"? TIL). My partner does this exact same thing. I'm never able to find out what she wants to do, because any such question becomes reinterpreted by her as a "he must want to do this, so I must say what I think he expects me to say" game.

What about asking "what do you want to do" instead of suggesting an activity? The partner here is making reasonable guesses anyway, they are not misinterpreting, they are just not stupid. They assume you are not setting up the following conversation: - Would you like to go to beach? - Yes, I would love to! - I am really opposed to the idea!

My goto has always been telling other people what I want up front, before asking them what they want to do.

So - “I just want to stay here and chill - how about you, do you want to go to the beach?”

Or - “I’m starving, are you hungry? Should we get food?”

Re: Why it’s so hard to say what you mean

#25

Post by mock-possum »

akomtu wrote: post #18
drewcoo wrote: post #2

Um . . . it's not. It's just hard to understand what all those allistic people mean. Why do they say false things all the time and why is that socially normal? How is falsehood the acceptable norm but not truth? Things like this article try to construct frameworks for the falsehoods. Boo! Boo! /self throws rotten tomatoes Boo!

Allistic? You mean "normal"? They can reflect others in their mind and see how their words change those reflections. Some take it too far and their inner world is a room with mirrored walls: they see many reflections of reflections, distorted by warped mirrors and they make their speech look straight in those reflections. The result is a tall pile of lies. Autists, on the other hand, have a brick wall in place of the…

Pretty sure terms like ‘allistic’ are specifically intended to avoid using terms like ‘normal’ when it comes to historically oppressed / minority groups. That’s why it’s not “trans” and “normal” - it’s “trans” and “cis”

Also what does ‘normal’ mean? If you use ‘allistic’ then you make it explicit that you’re addressing something opposed to ‘autistic.’

Re: Why it’s so hard to say what you mean

#26

Post by akomtu »

mock-possum wrote: post #25
akomtu wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Allistic? You mean "normal"? They can reflect others in their mind and see how their words change those reflections. Some take it too far and their inner world is a room with mirrored walls: they see many reflections of reflections, distorted by warped mirrors and they make their speech look straight in those reflections. The result is a tall pile of lies. Autists, on the other hand, have a brick wall in place of the…

Pretty sure terms like ‘allistic’ are specifically intended to avoid using terms like ‘normal’ when it comes to historically oppressed / minority groups. That’s why it’s not “trans” and “normal” - it’s “trans” and “cis” Also what does ‘normal’ mean? If you use ‘allistic’ then you make it explicit that you’re addressing something opposed to ‘autistic.’

Inventing contrived words to obscure reality is a form of lying to yourself and others. Normal means typical, "like others". It doesn't mean good, because in a hospital ward it's normal to be sick.

Re: Why it’s so hard to say what you mean

#27

Post by sublinear »

Are people really still stuck on the whole self-help thing in 2023?

Striving for continuous improvement can be a horrible treadmill that just keeps you sad because you are never good enough. It's a repackaging of your own awful stubbornness sold back to you. Inevitably you will have to stop self-flagellating and ruminating endlessly or you'll never be able to enjoy your life.

Mistakes are not proof that you need to improve or evidence of what you do or don't know. They're just proof that you're human and aren't foolishly consistent. You can't create much without some enjoyment. If your ego still wants you to be the greatest that ever lived, that's ok go for it, but what it takes doesn't seem to be what many think. It's not how much effort you put into your work, but the thoughtfulness that comes from a state of flow that you can't will into existence consciously.

Examples are everywhere. Every celebrity, all star athlete, politician, genius, etc. all have flaws and they wildly succeeded despite that. Many of them are obviously bigger pieces of shit than you, or you wouldn't be obsessed with what the media says about them, right? So? Live life and get away from the messages sold to you.

Re: Why it’s so hard to say what you mean

#28

Post by ethanbond »

sublinear wrote: post #27

Are people really still stuck on the whole self-help thing in 2023? Striving for continuous improvement can be a horrible treadmill that just keeps you sad because you are never good enough. It's a repackaging of your own awful stubbornness sold back to you. Inevitably you will have to stop self-flagellating and ruminating endlessly or you'll never be able to enjoy your life. Mistakes are not proof that you need to i…

Counterpoint: Striving for improvement can also be a good way to get better at things that are important to you

Everyone who succeeded did so in spite of their flaws, yes, but that’s because their strengths were significant enough and well-placed.

Re: Why it’s so hard to say what you mean

#29

Post by ethanbond »

akomtu wrote: post #26
mock-possum wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure terms like ‘allistic’ are specifically intended to avoid using terms like ‘normal’ when it comes to historically oppressed / minority groups. That’s why it’s not “trans” and “normal” - it’s “trans” and “cis” Also what does ‘normal’ mean? If you use ‘allistic’ then you make it explicit that you’re addressing something opposed to ‘autistic.’

Inventing contrived words to obscure reality is a form of lying to yourself and others. Normal means typical, "like others". It doesn't mean good, because in a hospital ward it's normal to be sick.

Allistic seems pretty useful here actually (first time encountering the word). “Normal” doesn’t describe along which dimension the person is typical. Allistic specifies the relevant one.

Re: Why it’s so hard to say what you mean

#30

Post by sublinear »

ethanbond wrote: post #28
sublinear wrote: post #27

Are people really still stuck on the whole self-help thing in 2023? Striving for continuous improvement can be a horrible treadmill that just keeps you sad because you are never good enough. It's a repackaging of your own awful stubbornness sold back to you. Inevitably you will have to stop self-flagellating and ruminating endlessly or you'll never be able to enjoy your life. Mistakes are not proof that you need to i…

Counterpoint: Striving for improvement can also be a good way to get better at things that are important to you Everyone who succeeded did so in spite of their flaws, yes, but that’s because their strengths were significant enough and well-placed.

Yeah I was thinking more along the lines of personal growth, not necessarily skills.

Getting good at your job or hobbies are also a great way to boost self esteem and there's for sure philosophies in their ways that translate to some personal growth, but overall I meant mental health, relationships, emotional intelligence, etc. which don't really fit the "skill" abstraction because they're not a means to an end.

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