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Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

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Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#21

Post by ptsneves »

Byzantine history is so important to understand the modern world. It gives us the context for the orthodox/west divide; it gives us an example of a economic and intellectual superpower needing to live with the realities of barbarian neighbors, and being destroyed! It shows us great statecraft lasting a thousand years. It even shows us why generals and senior civil servants were eunuchs and how the next best thing was celibate people. This is the reason why catholic priests should be celibate and therefore the answer against nepotist corruption. We all know how nepotism is a serious issue in states everywhere in the world.

I became a fan of the Byzantines and seriously found team Roman Catholic to be a bunch of barbarians. I say team Roman Catholic because this small book[1] makes Byzantine history and trivia so humorous.

[1] https://global.oup.com/academic/product/a-cabinet-of-byzanti...

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#22

Post by fluxinflex »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #17
exhilaration wrote: post #6

I'm curious, is there a list somewhere of these world-changing industrial espionage incidents? Here's two more I remember off the top of my head. Not sure why the top results are the Smithsonian Magazine but here are some links: Samuel Slater brings cotton mill technology to America in 1789: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-industrial-esp... Robert Fortune learns Chinese tea production methods and brings…

The US actually encouraged "IP theft" well into the 19th century and did not recognise foreign copyright. On their side the UK not only banned export of certain technologies to the US but they also banned emigration of the people knowledgeable about them.

This similar to Chinas stand on IP: copying is ok so long it doesn't happen to our IP. But this is how small economies can grow quickly, by ignoring IP. So nearly every western nation had a period of ignoring copyright and/or IP.

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#23

Post by fluxinflex »

mjhay wrote: post #18
morkalork wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>“Foreigners seemed to prefer having a mixture of Prussian blue and gypsum with their tea, to make it look uniform and pretty, and as these ingredients were cheap enough, the Chinese [have] no objection to [supplying] them as such teas always fetch . . . a higher price!” This quote and the preceding paragraph about the distrust of the Chinese tea manufacturers are quite something. I hadn't considered the "made in Chi…

Historically (before ~1800 let's say) China was known for its very high-quality goods. In fact, the Silk Road trade and later trade with the Spanish was almost exclusively Chinese goods flowing out and gold and silver specie flowing in - mainly because their domestic production was good enough that foreign goods couldn't compete. This was enough of a thing that the Romans became concerned at the amount of specie flow…

This is was the reason for the Opium Wars with the English. The English wanted Chinas tea but the Chinese didn't want anything from the English so the English were bleeding gold and silver into China.

So the English forced Opium onto the people of China against the will of the King of China. China rebelled, the English conquered and forced the Chinese to open their ports and accept Indian-grown opium as trade for Chinese tea.

That continued until the English found the secret plants that made the Chinese tea. They stole those plants and planted them in India.

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#24

Post by qwytw »

mjhay wrote: post #18
morkalork wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>“Foreigners seemed to prefer having a mixture of Prussian blue and gypsum with their tea, to make it look uniform and pretty, and as these ingredients were cheap enough, the Chinese [have] no objection to [supplying] them as such teas always fetch . . . a higher price!” This quote and the preceding paragraph about the distrust of the Chinese tea manufacturers are quite something. I hadn't considered the "made in Chi…

Historically (before ~1800 let's say) China was known for its very high-quality goods. In fact, the Silk Road trade and later trade with the Spanish was almost exclusively Chinese goods flowing out and gold and silver specie flowing in - mainly because their domestic production was good enough that foreign goods couldn't compete. This was enough of a thing that the Romans became concerned at the amount of specie flow…

> mainly because their domestic production was good enough that foreign goods couldn't compete

Most international trade (well intercontinental anyway) was restricted almost exclusively to luxury goods. And Europe didn't have to export in that regard besides glassware up until the 19th century. Transportation costs were way too high to export/import anything that might have taken up more space across long distances (especially over land).

After the industrial revolution imports to China remained at relatively very low levels due to heavily protectionist policies by the imperial government until the opium wars.

Obviously opium was the most egregious example and by modern standards China clearly had the right to restrict its imports. Opium just happened to be the most profitable one, however importing anything else (like cotton, furs, steel tools, mechanical items) besides gold/silver was very hard as well which why (amongst other thing) many Chinese people living on the coast weren't that keen on supporting the government (of course China was in sate of near permanent civil war and endless revolts during most of the century).

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#25

Post by nerdponx »

ptsneves wrote: post #21

Byzantine history is so important to understand the modern world. It gives us the context for the orthodox/west divide; it gives us an example of a economic and intellectual superpower needing to live with the realities of barbarian neighbors, and being destroyed! It shows us great statecraft lasting a thousand years. It even shows us why generals and senior civil servants were eunuchs and how the next best thing was…

One thing I learned recently is that 12th Century Fourth Crusade actually culminated in sacking Constantinople and establishment of the "Latin Empire", as the intended successor of the Byzantine Empire, which only existed for a brief time before it was recaptured by a rump state founded by exiled Byzantine aristocrats. Apparently (and understandably) this led to major deterioration in East-West Christian relations, and furthermore the resulting weakening of the Byzantine Empire is what might have enabled the Ottoman Empire to eventually conquer the Byzantine Empire in the 15th Century. The level of geopolitical chaos involved in such an event is unimaginable today. Even the messiest of 20th century wars seem downright orderly by comparison.

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#26

Post by drcode »

ptsneves wrote: post #21

Byzantine history is so important to understand the modern world. It gives us the context for the orthodox/west divide; it gives us an example of a economic and intellectual superpower needing to live with the realities of barbarian neighbors, and being destroyed! It shows us great statecraft lasting a thousand years. It even shows us why generals and senior civil servants were eunuchs and how the next best thing was…

I do find it curious that not that much science came out of the Byzantine empire- Yes there was some, but (with my admittedly limited knowledge) it does seem to pale in comparison to the earlier stuff from Greece, Rome or even the Arab Caliphates with their scholars in Mathematics and Physics.

It seems like it was intellectual, but didn't have a proportional output of science or art that has stood the test of time.

Feel free to disagree and tell me why I'm wrong

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#27

Post by Jeff_Brown »

ptsneves wrote: post #21

Byzantine history is so important to understand the modern world. It gives us the context for the orthodox/west divide; it gives us an example of a economic and intellectual superpower needing to live with the realities of barbarian neighbors, and being destroyed! It shows us great statecraft lasting a thousand years. It even shows us why generals and senior civil servants were eunuchs and how the next best thing was…

Carrying that logic further, then, would it be better if public servants had no friends? If everyone anywhere but the lowest rung of the corporate ladder (from which one does not typically make hiring decisions) also had no family? For only the least (conventionally) successful to reproduce seems problematic.

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#28

Post by giraffe_lady »

ptsneves wrote: post #21

Byzantine history is so important to understand the modern world. It gives us the context for the orthodox/west divide; it gives us an example of a economic and intellectual superpower needing to live with the realities of barbarian neighbors, and being destroyed! It shows us great statecraft lasting a thousand years. It even shows us why generals and senior civil servants were eunuchs and how the next best thing was…

The religious parts of this I'm not sure I can agree with really.... I'm orthodox if it matters or seems relevant.

The catholic/orthodox differences are largely just because of a thousand years of divergence, of speaking different languages and having relatively little interchange, of each individually having movements in response to internal pressures and trends not experienced by the other. Not going to get into a filioque debate on HN but the initial theological dispute, however significant you find it to be, is not the source of the most tangible differences in the two branches today. They've just each been doing their own thing for a millennium and their unique histories took them to two different places during that time.

I don't see how byzantine eunuchs indicates anything about priest celibacy, especially since orthodox priests are usually married. Eunuchs and celibate priests still come from families, they experience love and duty and allegiance and enmity. To the extent a position is admirable people will want to be in it and to the extent it's powerful people will use that power to benefit the people and things they value. No restriction on who can hold an office will by itself address those factors. Byzantine eunuchs got up to plenty of corruption and betrayal in their own right.

I assume by "barbarians" you mean the ottoman turks, but we have to be careful in reading byzantine history not to absorb byzantine attitudes about their rivals. The ottomans were a long-lived, sophisticated, and nuanced entity in their own right. Even their precursors and other byzantine neighbors were not as simple or simply motivated as byzantine or byz-sympathetic sources would indicate.

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#30

Post by mach1ne »

drcode wrote: post #26
ptsneves wrote: post #21

Byzantine history is so important to understand the modern world. It gives us the context for the orthodox/west divide; it gives us an example of a economic and intellectual superpower needing to live with the realities of barbarian neighbors, and being destroyed! It shows us great statecraft lasting a thousand years. It even shows us why generals and senior civil servants were eunuchs and how the next best thing was…

I do find it curious that not that much science came out of the Byzantine empire- Yes there was some, but (with my admittedly limited knowledge) it does seem to pale in comparison to the earlier stuff from Greece, Rome or even the Arab Caliphates with their scholars in Mathematics and Physics. It seems like it was intellectual, but didn't have a proportional output of science or art that has stood the test of time. F…

Well, Christianity is a big reason. It was so successful for so long in part because it aggressively repressed any ideologies which could have threatened its hegemony. Since the Church considered the ’scientific’ domain to be part of its curriculum, new science was generally a threat.
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