More than a third of community college students have vanished • Hacker News Board

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#21

Post by CydeWeys » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 2:33 PM UTC

mjburgess wrote: post #15

etempleton wrote: post #8

It is a bit of paradox that community colleges are, in theory, what every talking head and commentator are asking colleges to be—direct, cheap, no frill, about the education only—and yet there is no other college type that is seeing a more precipitous enrollment drop off than community colleges and technical schools. The answer, and no one likes this, is what people say they want and what they actually want as voted…

The issue is network effects, though, right? If community colleges could attract the best teachers (etc.), and provide the kind of education as stated , then perhaps they would be what people want. The problem is the incentives of workers, academics, students, the state, etc. are not aligned. Most students probably do want the best practical education to get them into the workforce effectively -- but those who can pr…

Community colleges flat out can't afford the salaries that the best require. That's not network effects, that's a market effect.

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#22

Post by ghaff » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 2:35 PM UTC

itsoktocry wrote: post #17

jollyllama wrote: post #2

>“You need help with your classes and financial aid? Well, here, take a number and run from office to office and see if you can figure it out.” >“I’ve had to go out of my way to find people, and if they didn’t know the answer, they would send me to somebody else, usually by email.” Hearing back from the financial aid office, she said, can take a month. State schools are like this too.

> if they didn’t know the answer, they would send me to somebody else That sounds like the ideal response, doesn't it? We talk about kids not being prepared for the real-world, and this seems like a good example. The first student graduated high-school with a 4.0 GPA, but can't figure out what classes he should take? Some of us went to college pre-email; there was no way to communicate but going office to office to r…

Broadly speaking, a lot of people have either never known or (speaking for myself) have largely memory holed how terrifically difficult it was to connect to the one person who knew the answer to something or to get information about most things generally.

The details don't matter but years ago we had some international family financial transaction that needed an appropriate stamp from someone. A notary wasn't good enough. I was sort of out of options at that point until someone pointed me to one our executive admins who knew what was needed. Today the answer is probably a Google away.

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#23

Post by driverdan » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 2:36 PM UTC

legitster wrote: post #20

I had a wonderful time at community college! (It helps that my community college had an amazing service department). Even for people who don't finish a degree, it's still a great place to get exposure or make connections. And it's much cheaper to find out college isn't for you at community college. Transfer programs though are a mess. The culprit are the 4-year universities - who actually punish you for not coming di…

That depends on the school. I went to Monroe Community College which worked with Rochester Institute of Technology to craft its CS program. MCC uses the same material as RIT. In this case transferring is very easy.

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#24

Post by HPsquared » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 2:36 PM UTC

crop_rotation wrote: post #9

etempleton wrote: post #8

It is a bit of paradox that community colleges are, in theory, what every talking head and commentator are asking colleges to be—direct, cheap, no frill, about the education only—and yet there is no other college type that is seeing a more precipitous enrollment drop off than community colleges and technical schools. The answer, and no one likes this, is what people say they want and what they actually want as voted…

> is what people say they want and what they actually want as votes by their enrollment are two different things. This is a universal truth about everything though. What people say and what they do are not guaranteed to be same.

"Stated Preference" vs "Revealed Preference"

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#25

Post by humanistbot » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 2:36 PM UTC

etempleton wrote: post #8

It is a bit of paradox that community colleges are, in theory, what every talking head and commentator are asking colleges to be—direct, cheap, no frill, about the education only—and yet there is no other college type that is seeing a more precipitous enrollment drop off than community colleges and technical schools. The answer, and no one likes this, is what people say they want and what they actually want as voted…

>The answer, and no one likes this, is what people say they want and what they actually want as votes by their enrollment are two different things.

There's no "paradox" here. There's just a huge gap between two groups whose members have likely never had a conversation with someone from the other group: talking head commentators and people without even an associate's degree. The commentators are saying that people who haven't gone to college should want community college, because they believe traditional universities aren't worth it. The people who haven't gone to college don't want community college and keep taking on loans to bankroll traditional colleges. It turns out higher education is a business and consumers love frills no matter what the sector is, but especially if they don't have to think about paying it back.

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#26

Post by causi » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 2:37 PM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #19

atty wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that’s missing one big piece. What people really want cheap education that ends with a degree that is as well regarded as an Ivy or good state college degree. Community colleges, for better or worse, are seen as inferior education. So they are not equivalent to simply a cheaper option of more expensive schools.

There is usually a path for two years of cheaper community college with transferable credits to two final years at a state university.

Problem being that community colleges will happily lie to your face about what does and does not transfer and most community college students aren't going to lawyer up about it.

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#27

Post by jollyllama » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 2:38 PM UTC

itsoktocry wrote: post #17

jollyllama wrote: post #2

>“You need help with your classes and financial aid? Well, here, take a number and run from office to office and see if you can figure it out.” >“I’ve had to go out of my way to find people, and if they didn’t know the answer, they would send me to somebody else, usually by email.” Hearing back from the financial aid office, she said, can take a month. State schools are like this too.

> if they didn’t know the answer, they would send me to somebody else That sounds like the ideal response, doesn't it? We talk about kids not being prepared for the real-world, and this seems like a good example. The first student graduated high-school with a 4.0 GPA, but can't figure out what classes he should take? Some of us went to college pre-email; there was no way to communicate but going office to office to r…

Yeah, pretty much. It turns out earning top marks at taking orders for 12 years doesn't equate to the ability to identify challenges, think outside the box, and execute.

>That sounds like the ideal response, doesn't it?

Ideal would be like a competent concierge, but that simply doesn't exist for the non-wealthy.

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#28

Post by ghaff » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 2:40 PM UTC

screye wrote: post #18

Universities are about a few things: 1. Education - Inspiration and job training 2. High-achieving peer groups 3. Prestige and signalling 4. Fun and independence Online courses do #1 better than CCs. Dorms are essential to #4, so CCs miss out on it. There is no prestige associated with CCs and the titular community isn't especially high achieving. What value do CCs provide ?

I guess it's a fairly low cost degree of some sort that I assume has more value than a list of MOOC certificates, evening classes, and maybe an industry cert or two in the case of IT. But there are a variety of lower cost options and I'm not sure where a community college degree sits in the hierarchy and in terms of cost/benefit.

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#29

Post by screwturner68 » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 2:41 PM UTC

atty wrote: post #13

etempleton wrote: post #8

It is a bit of paradox that community colleges are, in theory, what every talking head and commentator are asking colleges to be—direct, cheap, no frill, about the education only—and yet there is no other college type that is seeing a more precipitous enrollment drop off than community colleges and technical schools. The answer, and no one likes this, is what people say they want and what they actually want as voted…

I think that’s missing one big piece. What people really want cheap education that ends with a degree that is as well regarded as an Ivy or good state college degree. Community colleges, for better or worse, are seen as inferior education. So they are not equivalent to simply a cheaper option of more expensive schools.

I think with the advent of online education, community colleges as not seen as necessary. Why go to Hometown Community College when you can attend almost any school online. Personally I'm a big fan of community colleges, they can be area specific and provide actual job training that online schools rally can't provide. They also turn out better students, student's that go to community colleges tend to do better when they go to a 4 year school and finally as someone who has been out of college over 30 years it's a place where I can continually retool at a reasonable price.

Re: More than a third of community college students have vanished

#30

Post by redman25 » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 2:41 PM UTC

etempleton wrote: post #8

It is a bit of paradox that community colleges are, in theory, what every talking head and commentator are asking colleges to be—direct, cheap, no frill, about the education only—and yet there is no other college type that is seeing a more precipitous enrollment drop off than community colleges and technical schools. The answer, and no one likes this, is what people say they want and what they actually want as voted…

I’ve taken side classes at a local community college that were honestly more rigorous and better taught than the four year school I attended for my bachelors.