Live data from Hacker News

Visual proof that investors are bad at timing the market

blog.futureadvisor.com

21–26 of 26 posts

Re: Visual proof that investors are bad at timing the market

#21
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed - yet individual investors try anyway, and the futility of this is all we're trying to point out.

You should point this out to http://wealthmagazine.com . They have a service they sell, where they train you on how individuals can time the market. You take a course they offer then buy into their online tool and start timing the market like the big boys. The course is all about how to effectively use their tools. I went to a seminar that had some big names, Terry Bradshaw, Colin Powell, Gulliani, Bill Cosby. It was…

You've pointed out the exact nature of the problem. They made a killing that day, and they probably will continue to make a killing as long as naive investors believe they can beat the market (whether with timing, or security selection, or both).

The only way around this is to educate investors about things like this. Because let's be honest: those guys at Wealth Magazine (at least the ones running the place, I presume) know full well their customers are wasting their money. But the fact is, it's revenue for them, and as long as that spigot is still flowing no way are they going to bite the hand that feeds them.

It's a conflict-of-interest situation, rather than a lack of knowledge on the part of the folks selling these financial services. You can be sure the guys (and they're usually guys) at the top aren't buying funds based on advice from Bill Cosby (no offense to the actor's other skills).

Re: Visual proof that investors are bad at timing the market

#22
post #17

I believe this is testing a false premise. The premise is, that when investors think the market is going to go up in the next month, they move money into mutual funds, and that when investors think the market is going to go down in the next month, they move money out. I'm sure some proportion of investors move money in and out of mutual funds based on their market expectations, but I do not believe they do so with a…

Your point about the single month as the timing period is definitely valid - in hindsight the article would have benefitted from having that be maybe 6 months or 12 months instead.

The premise isn't as clear-cut as what you laid out, in my opinion. In general people do start with the best of intentions; that is, their time horizon when they buy is usually something like "until I need the money". But, that's the generic case under stable market return conditions. In times of panic, folks who thought they were okay with risk find out they're not okay with it, and pull out (usually after much of the panic has already passed). In boom times people start to, like you said, "move money between funds" usually in a way that follows the recent price increases (gold recently, tech in 2001, etc). It's these movements that the article is written against - and you're right, it would have benefitted from a longer time series of returns.

Indeed, if you remember the oft-quoted Nasdaq Composite Index from the dot com boom - the level in 1998 was the same level as in 2002, but in the interim investors as a whole lost billions. That's a lot more than would have been lost if people had just regularly been investing the same amount each month into their 401(k), which is what we wish would have happened.

Re: Visual proof that investors are bad at timing the market

#23
And how are those folks faring who didn't time the market for the past decade? On average, their funds are at the exact same place they were in 2001.

I work for a company (who I won't mention simply because I don't want it to appear that I'm shilling for them), who has used market timing since 1972 and over the past 40 years have consistently outperformed the market using three fairly simple market timing indicators. Not by leaps and bounds - generally just a few percentage points - but still outperforming.

Re: Visual proof that investors are bad at timing the market

#25

And how are those folks faring who didn't time the market for the past decade? On average, their funds are at the exact same place they were in 2001. I work for a company (who I won't mention simply because I don't want it to appear that I'm shilling for them), who has used market timing since 1972 and over the past 40 years have consistently outperformed the market using three fairly simple market timing indicators.…

Thats true, but we must remember that for folks who _did_ try to time the market many will have actually had negative returns because of failing timing attempts. For example, there was a massive outflow of funds from Equities after the most recent correction (as there usually is when the market performs badly), and those people who pulled out of equities did not get to participate in the record-setting rebound that happened soon after.

Comparing performance over any given time period to some arbitrary standard (in this case, "flat" is assumed to be bad) doesn't tell the whole picture. On the flip side, there are many instances where funds performed admirably but in a time when the markets as a whole did even better. Just as I wouldn't commend a fund for gains in a bull market, docking a fund or portfolio for being "flat" when the market as a whole was flat over the given time period is unfair.

I don't doubt that your company has outperformed (after all, you have the data and I don't). But for what it's worth, was it a slam dunk to assume 40 years ago that your company would have outperformed over the subsequent 40 years? That's the problem: picking winners before they're winners. Will you outperform for another 30 years (my own investment horizon?). Hard to tell.

Re: Visual proof that investors are bad at timing the market

#26

Investors as a whole doesn't, but insiders like Goldman and the hedges definitely does.

Active investors of all kinds definitely try, but again as a whole they've failed. I'll try to dig up the data and put it into an article sometime, but the fallacy that you should just pick a hedge fund and it'll outperform via market timing or securities selection is false.

And of course, as for picking the "right" fund which will subsequently do that - well that's the hard part.

Post reply on HN