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France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition

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Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition

#21

Post by forgottenpaswrd »

dlikhten wrote: post #5

Reporter totally misses the point. The point is that google provided google maps for free. That is great. except when all other competition dies (because who can compete with a better, freer version of your product?) google starts charging pretty rediculous rates. That move in itself is what contributed to the ruling. OSM is free for everyone. It is a wiki. If OSM destroys google, bing, etc, and then decides to go on…

"That is great. except when all other competition dies (because who can compete with a better, freer version of your product?) google starts charging pretty rediculous rates."

This is what happened with big malls in Europe, small retailers could not compete in price so they got out of business. Now some of the malls have bigger prices that what small retailers had, as they have way less competition. E.g Carrefour bought all the malls here so all them are Carrefour now.

Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition

#24

Post by watty »

This has nothing to do with the free Google Maps but instead the use in Enterprise which normally carries a hefty price tag. Software products do promotions all the time - it's still up to the user to decide whether the future costs of the software/updates are worth it.

Maybe it's a little unfair to the smaller players but illegal? I see it as a promotion to get the Enterprise version some extra users and increase publicity. It's competition. Google can afford to lower their price or give it away free to gain customers, this is bad? What if their promotion didn't give it away but went half price? 1/5th price? Who decides what level Google can cut their price as a temporary promotion?

Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition

#25

Post by dangrossman »

[deleted] wrote: post #17

[deleted]

Do you think that in a market for a service which is very expensive to provide, one participant offering that service for free will encourage competition, or will it drive the others out of business? If you agree that it will drive them out of business, then you agree that offering the service for free is anticompetitive.

The situation here is more complicated than that, and not all anticompetitive action is not illegal, but I don't think you actually believe that offering a free service can't be anticompetitive.

Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition

#27

Post by ghc »

nodata wrote: post #10
[deleted] wrote: post #3

[deleted]

Europe has loads of nice things. You should visit sometime. This ruling, presumably, is about a big company subsidising its unprofitable mapping business with another part of its business until the small fish die.

> Europe has loads of nice things. You should visit sometime.

HN is not a place for flame wars about countries (or continents). He had a valid point, as he was referencing the hostile legal climate for doing (some kinds of) business in several European countries (and in some cases the EU).

Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition

#28

Post by lloeki »

yanw wrote: post #12
dlikhten wrote: post #5

Reporter totally misses the point. The point is that google provided google maps for free. That is great. except when all other competition dies (because who can compete with a better, freer version of your product?) google starts charging pretty rediculous rates. That move in itself is what contributed to the ruling. OSM is free for everyone. It is a wiki. If OSM destroys google, bing, etc, and then decides to go on…

Didn't they start charging because they started getting sued for offering it free of charge? And according to other reports it's apparently illegal in France to offer something for free if it costs money to develop. But what about those who enjoyed using the free stuff and even built businesses on top of it?

The law says it's forbidden to sell something at a loss. While it's straightforward to evaluate when you resell a physical good as-is, it's quite more shady when you do some transformation (maybe at least the sum of its components?) and outright undefinable for intangible goods, let alone a service. That's the letter of the law, but the spirit of the law is to prevent undercutting your competitors to death.

I bet all of this is tied to IGN (France's national mapping agency) offering GéoPortail, a free but absolutely crappy service and a paid yet just as crappy service and dying a horrible, deserved death. They should have kept doing what they do right: providing map data and securing a deal with Google or Nokia for the aerial and street shots, and the maps.

Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition

#29

Post by wolfhumble »

While you can use the Google Maps API for free, it has actually some pretty limiting restrictions:

Google Maps/Google Earth APIs Terms of Service, 9.1.1 General Rules, (a): "(a) Free Access (No Fees). Your Maps API Implementation must be generally accessible to users without charge and must not require a fee-based subscription or other fee-based restricted access. This rule applies to Your Content and any other content in your Maps API Implementation, whether Your Content or the other content is in existence now or is added later."

See: http://code.google.com/apis/maps/terms.html#section_9_1_1

I am not a lawyer, but I think that would limit solutions where you use the Google Maps API within any Log In based, payed service.

There seems to be an exception for mobile applications though, see "9.1.2 Exceptions (b)", and if you have certain agreements with or permissions from Google, "9.1.2 Exceptions (a)": http://code.google.com/apis/maps/terms.html#section_9_1_2

If you do not comply with the Free Access (No Fees) requirements, you have to use the "Google Maps API for Business", and the price starts (currently) at $10.000, see: "What is the cost of Google Maps API for Business?" http://www.google.com/enterprise/earthmaps/maps-faq.html

Re: France convicts Google Maps for unfair competition

#30

Post by Karunamon »

dangrossman wrote: post #25
[deleted] wrote: post #17

[deleted]

Do you think that in a market for a service which is very expensive to provide, one participant offering that service for free will encourage competition, or will it drive the others out of business? If you agree that it will drive them out of business, then you agree that offering the service for free is anticompetitive. The situation here is more complicated than that, and not all anticompetitive action is not ille…

(deleted my OP due to people using the down arrow for "disagree")

>Do you think that in a market for a service which is very expensive to provide, one participant offering that service for free will encourage competition, or will it drive the others out of business?

I'm sorry but I'm finding it very hard to justify the government stepping in and saying "Nuh-uh, you're not charging enough". If this was a case of predatory pricing, whereby they're trying to just drive everyone else out before jacking the price up, that's one thing, but having a free service? My mind is boggling.

They are being forced to set a price higher than they want (or need) at gunpoint. So what is the price they should set? Who decides that, and what legal precedent is there for it?

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