Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Problem with Music (1993)

thebaffler.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

21–30 of 101 posts

Re: The Problem with Music (1993)

#21

Post by dahart »

650 wrote: post #3

Not knowing too much about sound engineering myself, I tried comparing it to software engineering. At the end of the day what matters is your output and learning along the way. It seems the author has a gripe with people calling themselves producers. If someone said I can’t call myself a software engineer until I had interned at XYZ company and understood Kubernetes, Docker, Typescript, AWS, Rust, etc. I would say ok…

The issue is that producers have no bar at all for the role, and the role is not well defined, unlike software engineers that typically have a 4 year degree, 2 year degree, or at the very least a code camp, before being hired. Would you hire someone for software engineering who had no engineering training or experience just because they can talk lucidly and in detail about what software they like?

Maybe a better software analogy here would be to compare producers to product managers. Great PMs are truly gold, but the PM role’s technical requirements are nebulous, and there are plenty of PMs who don’t know how to write code, and don’t know how to craft a good product, and don’t know how to communicate with customers effectively, essentially having no skills required for the job, but able to talk convincingly to enough of the right people to get hired and keep their jobs.

Re: The Problem with Music (1993)

#24

Post by livelielife »

dahart wrote: post #21
650 wrote: post #3

Not knowing too much about sound engineering myself, I tried comparing it to software engineering. At the end of the day what matters is your output and learning along the way. It seems the author has a gripe with people calling themselves producers. If someone said I can’t call myself a software engineer until I had interned at XYZ company and understood Kubernetes, Docker, Typescript, AWS, Rust, etc. I would say ok…

The issue is that producers have no bar at all for the role, and the role is not well defined, unlike software engineers that typically have a 4 year degree, 2 year degree, or at the very least a code camp, before being hired. Would you hire someone for software engineering who had no engineering training or experience just because they can talk lucidly and in detail about what software they like? Maybe a better soft…

> unlike software engineers that typically have a 4 year degree, 2 year degree...

they do NOW. Back when a lot of us started getting involved with this, most 'engineers' had physics, engineering, mathematics, and other various backgrounds because software engineering degrees were too freaking new.

In the near-future (10 5? years? possibly sooner?) kids are gonna graduate with specialized PM degrees having gone to highschool thinking about being "product manager" when they grow up. When I was in highscool i wanted to be a Webmaster! now a webmaster is 15 people between desiginers, PMs, backend, frontend, QA, testers, blah blah blha

Re: The Problem with Music (1993)

#25

Post by livelielife »

jeffreygoesto wrote: post #17
650 wrote: post #3

Not knowing too much about sound engineering myself, I tried comparing it to software engineering. At the end of the day what matters is your output and learning along the way. It seems the author has a gripe with people calling themselves producers. If someone said I can’t call myself a software engineer until I had interned at XYZ company and understood Kubernetes, Docker, Typescript, AWS, Rust, etc. I would say ok…

Sorry, but creating and engineering are on two different axes IMHO. Engineering is about using math and science to achieve things, kind of "the way". Creating is about "the goal". You can create beautiful things by just trying random stuff... For me, the vast majority of software is not engineering.

I agree with software not being engineering.

but I disagree that engineering is just execution. I disagree even harder that you can create something by throwing random stuff,, you may well find something cool like that but I think creation does require more of a clear intent than random throwing and finding as if by chance.

Re: The Problem with Music (1993)

#26

Post by olddustytrail »

ehutch79 wrote: post #18
microtonal wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30 years later (I started listening to a lot of music as a teenager around that time, including Albini-engineered music, realizing that that is about 30 years ago makes me feel... old?)

Oh.... yeah... now i feel even older

I had one of those last week when I was watching "Back To The Future" and realised that in a current remake, Marty McFly would be going back in time to the Olden Days of 1993.

Re: The Problem with Music (1993)

#27

Post by somesortofsystm »

650 wrote: post #3

Not knowing too much about sound engineering myself, I tried comparing it to software engineering. At the end of the day what matters is your output and learning along the way. It seems the author has a gripe with people calling themselves producers. If someone said I can’t call myself a software engineer until I had interned at XYZ company and understood Kubernetes, Docker, Typescript, AWS, Rust, etc. I would say ok…

>people calling themselves producers

The music industry has just as big a headache with imposter syndrome, the Flynn factor, and the Peter principle, as any other industry.

The issue is that the music industry is extremely exploitative, while being undeniably competitive. You don't get coders going to the extremes that members do, for their art. (Not sure if that is a good or bad thing, personally.)

>producers and artists making content that isn’t of the highest quality, but at the end of the day they are creating. Setting an unreasonable bar of skill is not the way forward.

Its not skill. Its sell-ability. It doesn't matter if you threw lemons at a piezo and called it done, if someone is willing to pay to listen to it - because it interests them - then you've got a hit.

The ability to sell music is a very, very difficult thing to attain. Music is immediately free upon creation.

We, of course, have imposed a great deal of arbitrary limits on its production and reproduction and broadcast and distribution over the years - but the fact we still have musicians out there, mind-blowingly great ones in fact, who will never get discovered in their lifetimes is a clue: music is language.

It therefore cannot and should not, ever, be limited by government - or its adherents - in ways which prevent the use of this language.

Re: The Problem with Music (1993)

#28

Post by PUSH_AX »

CuriouslyC wrote: post #13

The irony of this is that a lot of the sound engineering stuff isn't a thing anymore for recorded music - the producers won. If you mic properly and choose a space with the right acoustics you can achieve almost anything with walkthrough GUIs using a DAW and some plugins.

Mics? Chances are (unless you're a vocalist) you can either DI straight into a plugin or use a VSTi to just midi program a sampled version of your instrument both performed and engineered to a higher standard than you can reach.

Re: The Problem with Music (1993)

#29

Post by CuriouslyC »

PUSH_AX wrote: post #28
CuriouslyC wrote: post #13

The irony of this is that a lot of the sound engineering stuff isn't a thing anymore for recorded music - the producers won. If you mic properly and choose a space with the right acoustics you can achieve almost anything with walkthrough GUIs using a DAW and some plugins.

Mics? Chances are (unless you're a vocalist) you can either DI straight into a plugin or use a VSTi to just midi program a sampled version of your instrument both performed and engineered to a higher standard than you can reach.

While I've certainly done everything in software, there are a lot of genres (such as metal) where micing is a part of the sound. If you listen to metalcore vs a lot of metal, you can hear it.

Re: The Problem with Music (1993)

#30

Post by someweirdperson »

livelielife wrote: post #23

they are talking about the recording industry more than about music; so I suppose I agree? the recording industry is the problem that music has. But this 'problem' is not limited to music.

> the recording industry is the problem that music has. But this 'problem' is not limited to music.

In most other industries the individual isn't part of the product, but replaceable a lot more easily.

Post reply on HN