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Ryan Dahl steps down

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Re: Ryan Dahl steps down

#21

Post by baudehlo »

rhdoenges wrote: post #17
travisglines wrote: post #8

node.js is different. It's not a language, it's a small/extensible set of tools built on top of a solid language, and VM (V8) that are very mature. Node.js is in great hands with Isaac. Unlike many other web/network platforms node doesn't go around gobbling up everything into core. The community behind node is stronger and contributes more than I've seen before. Focusing on that third party module system experience i…

This change is a sign of Node's shift from improving the core to making modules work better. I see it that way, at least. Isaac is the author of npm after all.

Unfortunately the core is missing some significant features, whereas modules work pretty well already (though I can see room for doing pre-compiled binary modules like "PPM" does for Perl on Windows).

Re: Ryan Dahl steps down

#22

Post by Animus7 »

mvanveen wrote: post #6

What does this mean for the Node community at large? I recently had the pleasure of checking out the NodeUp podcasts. A large portion of the first episode is dedicated to enforcing the notion that Node is a new language, and that it will take decades to catch up to the maturity that Python and Perl provide as platforms. Opening up a subprocess, or having an `os` module which works in Windows, for example, all seemed…

> Having one voice shepherding the direction of the language has had tremendous influence on both languages. I can't help but think that node.js is in a similar situation.

Not really. Node.js isn't a language that needs direction; ECMAScript is a separate standard with its own drivers. Node isn't even an implementation of a language, and V8 has its own community directing it.

Node is a small core with pretty simple principles. The rest (the most important part, I'd argue) is a thriving third-party community, and that's something the loss of any single developer won't change.

Re: Ryan Dahl steps down

#23

Post by Animus7 »

baudehlo wrote: post #21
rhdoenges wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This change is a sign of Node's shift from improving the core to making modules work better. I see it that way, at least. Isaac is the author of npm after all.

Unfortunately the core is missing some significant features, whereas modules work pretty well already (though I can see room for doing pre-compiled binary modules like "PPM" does for Perl on Windows).

Honest question: have you actually tried working with modules and dependencies in Node? It's better now, but it's still not pleasant and often installing a module starts with debugging.

And what's the core missing, would you say? Personally, I thought the cluster stuff was already getting heavy.

Re: Ryan Dahl steps down

#24

Post by davvid »

alexhaefner wrote: post #12

Does anyone have a link that doesn't require me to login to see this?

Does anyone have a link that doesn't require me to login to see this?

This is a google groups quirk.

If you are logged into a google account it will prompt you. If you sign out of your google accounts then you can read it without being logged in.

Re: Ryan Dahl steps down

#25

Post by Animus7 »

forgotAgain wrote: post #20

negative: It would have been nice to see a 1.0 release before this happened. positive: Without the originator in place perhaps a more formal product infrastructure can be put in place by Joyent. I'm thinking in particular about a structure for the documentation of primary third party modules like Connect and Express. At present the readme's and examples on Git, Sencha, and ExpressJs are all done by the original modul…

> It would have been nice to see a 1.0 release before this happened.

I dunno, a lot of big players are using node in production, and the back-compat's getting reasonable. Why does the number when you type -v matter?

> Without the originator in place perhaps a more formal product infrastructure can be put in place by Joyent. I'm thinking in particular about a structure for the documentation of primary third party modules...

I think that's the opposite of what Node needs. All of these third party modules came about precisely because there's no blockers or infrastructure to getting started with extending Node. The documentation for some of these modules could definitely be better, but I don't think having a central authority imposing upon the community is a good solution.

> I don't mean to be too critical but if users are going to Stackoverflow for answers then there is a problem.

The reason SO is so huge is precisely because users of pretty much anything will always have problems. Node is not, and never will be, an exception.

Re: Ryan Dahl steps down

#26

Post by baudehlo »

Animus7 wrote: post #23
baudehlo wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately the core is missing some significant features, whereas modules work pretty well already (though I can see room for doing pre-compiled binary modules like "PPM" does for Perl on Windows).

Honest question: have you actually tried working with modules and dependencies in Node? It's better now, but it's still not pleasant and often installing a module starts with debugging. And what's the core missing, would you say? Personally, I thought the cluster stuff was already getting heavy.

> Honest question: have you actually tried working with modules and dependencies in Node? It's better now, but it's still not pleasant and often installing a module starts with debugging.

Yes. And you're right, but then it's not often that much better than other languages. Personally I'd rather they get the core language finished first (though their concept of "finished" and mine seem to differ).

> And what's the core missing, would you say? Personally, I thought the cluster stuff was already getting heavy.

There's no way to lock a file (making file writes completely fragile). There's no way to seek() in a file. There's no way to open a file with O_EXCL set (meaning lockless file writing is impossible). There's no temp file functionality in core, and without O_EXCL the solutions available for this on npm are utterly broken. There's still major bugs in the Crypto routines (they take Strings instead of Buffers in various places)... Honestly I could go on.

Re: Ryan Dahl steps down

#27

Post by baudehlo »

baudehlo wrote: post #21
rhdoenges wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This change is a sign of Node's shift from improving the core to making modules work better. I see it that way, at least. Isaac is the author of npm after all.

Unfortunately the core is missing some significant features, whereas modules work pretty well already (though I can see room for doing pre-compiled binary modules like "PPM" does for Perl on Windows).

Downvotes, really? I don't hate on Node - I develop a very popular open source server in it. But it has some fundamental weaknesses in terms of how finished it is, and most of the core developers don't think those missing things need adding before calling it 1.0 and the API gets set in stone.
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