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Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

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Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#21

Post by lumost »

ccooffee wrote: post #17
prpl wrote: post #11

Fermilab has been in trouble for a while. They did not diversify enough at the tail end of Tevatron and (I think) are mostly working on DUNE, which isn’t going great. You can’t have a lab that big with mostly a singular focus which is being executed poorly.

Your comment reminded me of a Youtube documentary about "the missing American particle collider"[0]. The documentary touches on some Fermilab drama, but most of the content is aimed at politics (and in particular, how presidential politics is unfortunately intertwined with funding for science mega-projects in the US). [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivVzGpznw1U&list=PLAB-wWbHL7...

This may be an interesting example of a “zombie” organization. Fermilab exists to push the boundaries of particle physics.

We stopped wanting to do that, or at the very least outlay the capital to do that. We likewise don’t want people at fermilab doing other things with their time. Meaning that they don’t have much to do but go through the motions.

We have a few of these in science, it would arguably be better in the long run to refocus our science budget on problems we’re interested in solving and some “risk” budget for different ideas.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#22

Post by Spooky23 »

Kon-Peki wrote: post #7

> However, Fermilab may not deserve all the blame, says a theoretical physicist who requested anonymity to protect relations with DOE. For example, he says, after the lab finally hammered out an excavation contract with Thyssen Mining, months passed before DOE approved it. “I’m not sure whether it’s really the lab that has a problem, or if it’s DOE that has a problem and is blaming the lab.” If you need anonymity to…

No civil service government employee should openly talk to the media, ever.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#24

Post by ghaff »

chollida1 wrote: post #15
Kon-Peki wrote: post #7

> However, Fermilab may not deserve all the blame, says a theoretical physicist who requested anonymity to protect relations with DOE. For example, he says, after the lab finally hammered out an excavation contract with Thyssen Mining, months passed before DOE approved it. “I’m not sure whether it’s really the lab that has a problem, or if it’s DOE that has a problem and is blaming the lab.” If you need anonymity to…

> If you need anonymity to talk to a reporter, you already know that DOE has a problem. I know nothing of the issues going on but this just isn't a universal truth. Most people would speak anonymously when talking about their employer and that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with their employer. Which employers allow their employees to speak poorly of them in public without permission to speak about the company?

In general, companies are pretty sensitive about employees talking to reporters. And certainly employees who aren't media trained and talking about things that aren't explicitly public. Depends to some degree on the employee and the topic, but generally talking to media outside of official channels can easily get someone in trouble even at relatively open companies.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#25

Post by pieix »

lumost wrote: post #21
ccooffee wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment reminded me of a Youtube documentary about "the missing American particle collider"[0]. The documentary touches on some Fermilab drama, but most of the content is aimed at politics (and in particular, how presidential politics is unfortunately intertwined with funding for science mega-projects in the US). [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivVzGpznw1U&list=PLAB-wWbHL7...

This may be an interesting example of a “zombie” organization. Fermilab exists to push the boundaries of particle physics. We stopped wanting to do that, or at the very least outlay the capital to do that. We likewise don’t want people at fermilab doing other things with their time. Meaning that they don’t have much to do but go through the motions. We have a few of these in science, it would arguably be better in th…

Government organizations should be wound down more regularly.

Nobody would argue that a business unit that has outlived its usefulness should be funded in perpetuity, yet there seems to be this "strictly increasing" mindset around organizations funded by the taxpayer.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#26

Post by edgyquant »

1letterunixname wrote: post #14

Some categories shouldn't be privatized like medicine, military arms, basic science, road maintenance, and emergency rescue operations. Elon isn't going to work on particle physics without a direct commercial purpose.

Who decides what “basic science” is?

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#27

Post by photochemsyn »

luckylion wrote: post #18
1letterunixname wrote: post #14

Some categories shouldn't be privatized like medicine, military arms, basic science, road maintenance, and emergency rescue operations. Elon isn't going to work on particle physics without a direct commercial purpose.

"Road maintenance" shouldn't be done by private companies that are given contracts by the government? Why not?

It really depends on where responsibility begins and ends. It might make a lot more sense, financially, for the government to manage maintenance using supplies and equipments purchased from private companies, with the people working on the roads being government employees instead of employees of the contractors. However, for specific jobs - say building a new bridge, etc. - it might make sense to have that be a complete private contract, and then, after it's built, maintenance becomes the government responsibility.

In general however, there's too much opportunity for corruption if contracts are just blindly given to private interests by politicians. Iraq and Afghanistan reconstruction contracts were a good example of how bad that can get.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#28

Post by dt23 »

Back in 2015 when I still thought I'd be a physicist, I was a summer intern at Fermilab on the MicroBooNE experiment. The sense of excitement and teamwork on the 10th floor was something I dearly missed when I went to CERN the year after.

Every day at 3pm was "coffee and cookies", and my colleagues and I would join the line filled with physicists of all ages and from across the lab, to grab a cookie or maybe two. On Fridays the coffee turned into wine and the cookies into cheese.

The second floor, where the coffee was, had a rotating art installation, which at some point included an acrylic box filled with water. One day this box went from being empty to containing a live goldfish.

I hope Fermilab retains this sense of magic that I have found in so few other places.

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#29

Post by bagels »

Spooky23 wrote: post #22
Kon-Peki wrote: post #7

> However, Fermilab may not deserve all the blame, says a theoretical physicist who requested anonymity to protect relations with DOE. For example, he says, after the lab finally hammered out an excavation contract with Thyssen Mining, months passed before DOE approved it. “I’m not sure whether it’s really the lab that has a problem, or if it’s DOE that has a problem and is blaming the lab.” If you need anonymity to…

No civil service government employee should openly talk to the media, ever.

Government should operate in secret?

Re: Major shake-up coming for Fermilab, the troubled U.S. particle physics center

#30

Post by peteradio »

dt23 wrote: post #28

Back in 2015 when I still thought I'd be a physicist, I was a summer intern at Fermilab on the MicroBooNE experiment. The sense of excitement and teamwork on the 10th floor was something I dearly missed when I went to CERN the year after. Every day at 3pm was "coffee and cookies", and my colleagues and I would join the line filled with physicists of all ages and from across the lab, to grab a cookie or maybe two. On…

Yea well cern had beer on tap ... For lunch!
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