For normal people (non-programmers) computers are pretty terrible. I'm kind of curious what happens when everyone gets a Jarvis-like assistant that can do the scary stuff (open a terminal, type some commands, or possibly code up a nice UI in seconds) based on natural language requests.
Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers
21–30 of 334 posts
Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers
#22I find a version of this even with fresh out of college programmers. They just know how to type Java on an IDE, maybe some SQL (using some graphical front end), some HTML/CSS. They can't operate in a Linux dev environment at all, can't use the command line or exit vi or perform any kind of simple shell based automation or use git without a plugin for their IDE. And they also are reluctant to learn because they are se…
What kind of college grads don't know how to operate in a linux dev environment? That'd be an immediate no-hire from me.
The kind that went into the subject just because it pays well and are taught some kind of bimodal syllabus: Lots of heavy Math/CS stuff they forget after the test and then practical programming as defined by "industry", industry being the big consulting firms churning out Java.
Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers
#23I find a version of this even with fresh out of college programmers. They just know how to type Java on an IDE, maybe some SQL (using some graphical front end), some HTML/CSS. They can't operate in a Linux dev environment at all, can't use the command line or exit vi or perform any kind of simple shell based automation or use git without a plugin for their IDE. And they also are reluctant to learn because they are se…
What kind of college grads don't know how to operate in a linux dev environment? That'd be an immediate no-hire from me.
Umm, most professional programmers probably don't know how to operate in a linux dev environment bro...
That is also an extremely stupid requirement. You can be a good programmer (Especially as a junior) without knowing all the linux command line tools.
Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers
#24Earlier quoted context omitted.
What kind of college grads don't know how to operate in a linux dev environment? That'd be an immediate no-hire from me.
The kind that went into the subject just because it pays well and are taught some kind of bimodal syllabus: Lots of heavy Math/CS stuff they forget after the test and then practical programming as defined by "industry", industry being the big consulting firms churning out Java.
This is exactly it. I'm involved with a lot of hiring for junior developers. It saddens me how many of them are trying to get into the field not because they're passionate for programming, interested in computers, or enjoy tinkering with digital tools. They're here because they're allured by big paychecks and "because everyone else at school is doing it."
There are, of course, exceptions, and those are the junior developers who excel the most but they are few and far in between.
Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers
#25I find a version of this even with fresh out of college programmers. They just know how to type Java on an IDE, maybe some SQL (using some graphical front end), some HTML/CSS. They can't operate in a Linux dev environment at all, can't use the command line or exit vi or perform any kind of simple shell based automation or use git without a plugin for their IDE. And they also are reluctant to learn because they are se…
What kind of college grads don't know how to operate in a linux dev environment? That'd be an immediate no-hire from me.
At my first job out of college, I met a lot of junior developers who could sort of get by in a Unix CLI, but didn't know anything except the very basics and didn't much like it. I was a Linux hobbyist from the age of 12, so I thought that sucked. Since the company had a practice where developers could give their peers educational talks, I decided to demo some of the things I use to make my Unix command line environments feel really great to work in.
I found that pointing CLI-shy devs to a nicer shell designed with ease of use in mind (Fish) and some basic navigation tools like fzf and autojump got a good chunk of them genuinely excited to learn more about the command line and make their environments more comfy. I also reviewed the available in-terminal documentation tools including those they likely hadn't seen in school (e.g., tldr, bro-pages), and I think that helped make clear how efficient exploring the command line from the command line can be. (Nowadays I'd also direct them to explainshell.com and some other web resources, though I think emphasizing the 'in-band' stuff is important.)
The next day, and every now and then for some time, I saw them reading the docs, writing their own little plugins and scripts and aliases, customizing their prompts, and so on. I knew about it because they sometimes even called me over to show off!
It would have been a shame to blow them off because, not having seen how it can be delightful to use, they saw the terminal as something to be avoided. They were smart, capable people who just hadn't encountered a good enough pitch yet.
Once the environment is comfy, learning individual tools in it becomes a lot less intimidating and more appealing to people. But you have to show them how good it can be and offer them a decent starter kit. :)
Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers
#26I find a version of this even with fresh out of college programmers. They just know how to type Java on an IDE, maybe some SQL (using some graphical front end), some HTML/CSS. They can't operate in a Linux dev environment at all, can't use the command line or exit vi or perform any kind of simple shell based automation or use git without a plugin for their IDE. And they also are reluctant to learn because they are se…
What kind of college grads don't know how to operate in a linux dev environment? That'd be an immediate no-hire from me.
It’s more common than you think. I graduated in 2013 and can tell you there were minimal opportunities to learn how to operate a Linux command line (if you didn’t already want to). Most jobs will set you up with some IDE with the codebase preloaded and a big green compile button, it’s just easy to avoid I guess.
I’ve been using Linux since 2008 and it’s the most high-yield skill set I have, it makes everything simpler and I encourage others to learn it.
Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers
#27Not really a novel observation, nor surprising.
The secret world of auto mechanics: “Just change the air filter.”
The secret world of electricians: “Turn the circuit breaker off and back on.”
The secret worlds of chefs, carpenters, doctors, lawyers, … I could go on and on. Why would programmers expect people not invested in programming to know this stuff, or care?
I only care about ignorance of jargon and specific skills when demonstrated by so-called professionals. A “programmer” who can’t install from the command line seems like an auto mechanic who can’t open the hood.
Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers
#28Everything in the post can by explained by "People think the familiar is easy, and the novel is hard." Judged by the standards of a programmer, yes, the suggested solutions are simpler. Judged by the non-technical coworker's standards, no, they are new and therefore scary and harder. You might say, "If they expended even 5 minutes of effort, they would not feel that way." But that's 5 minutes more than just using the…
This is the case even among highly technical and otherwise competent programmers. Junior developers especially will spend days reinventing wheels in whatever hot new language or framework when a better solution can be had in 5 minutes of reading a manpage. There seems to be nothing I can do to convince these devs of the errors of their ways.
Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
What kind of college grads don't know how to operate in a linux dev environment? That'd be an immediate no-hire from me.
Umm, most professional programmers probably don't know how to operate in a linux dev environment bro... That is also an extremely stupid requirement. You can be a good programmer (Especially as a junior) without knowing all the linux command line tools.
this is the most common. id say most people i’ve worked with start caring to learn the shell and dig into the os more around year 8 of their career
Re: Speak English to me: The secret world of programmers
#30Not really a novel observation, nor surprising. The secret world of auto mechanics: “Just change the air filter.” The secret world of electricians: “Turn the circuit breaker off and back on.” The secret worlds of chefs, carpenters, doctors, lawyers, … I could go on and on. Why would programmers expect people not invested in programming to know this stuff, or care? I only care about ignorance of jargon and specific sk…
The more apt analogies would be:
* "chng af"
* "tglCB"
I will continue my crusade to fight against this and spell things out until my death.