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Linux maintainer rejects patches from sanctioned Russian Baikal Electronics

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Re: Linux maintainer rejects patches from sanctioned Russian Baikal Electronics

#21

Post by psychphysic »

arp242 wrote: post #11
sph wrote: post #6

While I agree that code and science should be separated from politics, isn't this the point of the sanction? AFAIK the Linux Foundation is a US non-profit, and many core kernel developers, such as Linus Torvalds and Greg KH reside in the United States.

> code and science should be separated from politics I think almost no one agrees that it should be completely separate; there should be some distance, yes, but all these things do exist in the same reality and that can't always just be ignored. Should Linux also accept North-Korean patches for their ICBMs in mainline? Probably not. They can't prevent Linux from being used in them, but they also have no obligation to…

All I'm hearing is NATO military good guys, everyone else evil.

Somehow I should be agreeable to US weapons teams mainlining patches say for whatever weapon killed that random.man and his children during the fall of Kabul. But not a nasty North Koreans?

Re: Linux maintainer rejects patches from sanctioned Russian Baikal Electronics

#22

Post by arp242 »

pphysch wrote: post #18
arp242 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know who the "we" is; you have to ask the person who sent that message. Presumably it's the people responsible for that code. I explicitly mentioned IBM's involvement in the holocaust. But that's a historical event; not an on-going one. You can trace the genealogy of almost everyone an everything to something evil if you go back far enough. I think comparing the Russian and US military is a false equivalence.…

Russia has invaded 2 sovereign countries since 2000; USA has invaded at least 4. That's roughly the same order.

Afghanistan was ruled by a bunch of religio-fascist nutjobs.

Iraq was ruled by a genocidal dictator.

Does that mean those wars were a good idea? By my estimation, probably not, for a number of reasons. But they're not they're same thing at all as Russia's invasion of Ukraine. It's borderline bad-faith to even compare it.

I don't which other two you're referring to, but I'm willing to bet they're not the same thing at all either.

Re: Linux maintainer rejects patches from sanctioned Russian Baikal Electronics

#24

Post by arp242 »

hulitu wrote: post #16
arp242 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know who the "we" is; you have to ask the person who sent that message. Presumably it's the people responsible for that code. I explicitly mentioned IBM's involvement in the holocaust. But that's a historical event; not an on-going one. You can trace the genealogy of almost everyone an everything to something evil if you go back far enough. I think comparing the Russian and US military is a false equivalence.…

> I think comparing the Russian and US military is a false equivalence. Do I think the US is innocent? No. But it's just not on the same order. Of course. The US killings look almost "human" (Serbia, Irak, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Corea etc). And having other country's people killed just to follow US interest shows a lot of empathy. /s

War is always bad, messy, and rarely "clean", but comparing the toppling of fascist nutjobs like the Taliban to a completely unwarranted invasion of Ukraine is borderline bad faith, as is blaming the US for the Yugoslav wars (guess they should have just let the Serbs genocide the Bosnians and Albanians) or going back 75 years to the Korean war. By that standard we should also hold Stalin's purges against Russia for all perpetuity, or Japan, Germany, and Italy for the second world war. These thing are just not the same thing at all.

Re: Linux maintainer rejects patches from sanctioned Russian Baikal Electronics

#25

Post by pphysch »

arp242 wrote: post #22
pphysch wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia has invaded 2 sovereign countries since 2000; USA has invaded at least 4. That's roughly the same order.

Afghanistan was ruled by a bunch of religio-fascist nutjobs. Iraq was ruled by a genocidal dictator. Does that mean those wars were a good idea? By my estimation, probably not, for a number of reasons. But they're not they're same thing at all as Russia's invasion of Ukraine. It's borderline bad-faith to even compare it. I don't which other two you're referring to, but I'm willing to bet they're not the same thing at…

Do you realize how Orwellian it is that you cannot name some of the most prolific and brutal invasions that the #1 superpower has carried out during your own lifetime? This is basic historical literacy. Libya and Syria (ongoing) are the obvious ones you are missing.

Anyways, I'm not going to play the "let's take turns justifying the illegal invasions of distant sovereign countries" game.

Re: Linux maintainer rejects patches from sanctioned Russian Baikal Electronics

#26

Post by vfclists »

arp242 wrote: post #12
vfclists wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't any of the major US companies involved with Linux have huge contracts with the DoD? Didn't IBM the current owner of Redhat supply equipment to the Nazis which was used to document and track Jews? By the way who are the "We" in "We don't feel comfortable accepting patches from or relating to hardware produced by your organization."?

I don't know who the "we" is; you have to ask the person who sent that message. Presumably it's the people responsible for that code. I explicitly mentioned IBM's involvement in the holocaust. But that's a historical event; not an on-going one. You can trace the genealogy of almost everyone an everything to something evil if you go back far enough. I think comparing the Russian and US military is a false equivalence.…

> I think comparing the Russian and US military is a false equivalence. Do I think the US is innocent? No. But it's just not on the same order.

Seriously?

Setting aside those that the US was directly involved in such as Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan, how about the war between and Iraq and Iran that the US urged Saddam Hussein on which resulted in about 500,000 dead, for starters? In those days Saddam was the bestie of the US so long as he stuck it to Iran.

How about the sanctions on medical supplies to Iraq which resulted in about 500,000 deaths of Iraqi children?

Have you forgotten about the invasion of Grenada and Panama that the US invaded to install governments after their own heart? Very much like Russia's invasion of Ukraine only those wars were very much shorter because of the overwhelming might of the US.

Sadly the war on Ukraine is lasting much longer because Ukraine has the support of the US, until the US decides that China warrants more attention.

Re: Linux maintainer rejects patches from sanctioned Russian Baikal Electronics

#27

Post by arp242 »

sph wrote: post #20
arp242 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> code and science should be separated from politics I think almost no one agrees that it should be completely separate; there should be some distance, yes, but all these things do exist in the same reality and that can't always just be ignored. Should Linux also accept North-Korean patches for their ICBMs in mainline? Probably not. They can't prevent Linux from being used in them, but they also have no obligation to…

> Should Linux also accept North-Korean patches for their ICBMs in mainline? While NK is probably not looking to merge their `char/icbm` driver to the mainline tree, what about the NK military fixing a nasty bug in the memory allocator? Should the patch be rejected even if it improves a non-military subsystem, just because of who wrote it? It's just food-for-thought, personally I do not care one way or the other. As…

Ignoring trust issues (NK inserting a backdoor), I'd say clean bugfixes should probably be accepted.

My main point was to nuance the absolutist "code and science should be separate". I don't know enough about this code to make a judgement one way or the other: as I understand the commit message it's a cleanup as a prelude to GMAC and X-GMAC SoC support. Maybe the code is badly in need of some cleanup, or maybe it's essentially just fine and there is no reason to merge any of this beyond supporting those SoCs.

Re: Linux maintainer rejects patches from sanctioned Russian Baikal Electronics

#28

Post by arp242 »

pphysch wrote: post #25
arp242 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Afghanistan was ruled by a bunch of religio-fascist nutjobs. Iraq was ruled by a genocidal dictator. Does that mean those wars were a good idea? By my estimation, probably not, for a number of reasons. But they're not they're same thing at all as Russia's invasion of Ukraine. It's borderline bad-faith to even compare it. I don't which other two you're referring to, but I'm willing to bet they're not the same thing at…

Do you realize how Orwellian it is that you cannot name some of the most prolific and brutal invasions that the #1 superpower has carried out during your own lifetime? This is basic historical literacy. Libya and Syria (ongoing) are the obvious ones you are missing. Anyways, I'm not going to play the "let's take turns justifying the illegal invasions of distant sovereign countries" game.

United States never invaded Libya or Syria in the same way as Russia invaded Ukraine, or the US invaded Iraq. Both are essentially civil wars where the US was (and continues to be?) involved, but that's not the same thing as an invasion.

You can dismiss it as a "game", but the reasons and specifics of the situation DO matter. A lot. Denying this means, for example, that the Nazi invasion of Poland is just the same as the allied invasion of Nazi Germany. After all, both are foreign invasions in a sovereign country. No reasonable person would agree these situations are the same; the invasion in to Nazi territory was horrible because all war is, but was, in the end, a good thing. The same cannot be said about the invasion of Poland.

Re: Linux maintainer rejects patches from sanctioned Russian Baikal Electronics

#29

Post by anonymouskimmer »

psychphysic wrote: post #21
arp242 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> code and science should be separated from politics I think almost no one agrees that it should be completely separate; there should be some distance, yes, but all these things do exist in the same reality and that can't always just be ignored. Should Linux also accept North-Korean patches for their ICBMs in mainline? Probably not. They can't prevent Linux from being used in them, but they also have no obligation to…

All I'm hearing is NATO military good guys, everyone else evil. Somehow I should be agreeable to US weapons teams mainlining patches say for whatever weapon killed that random.man and his children during the fall of Kabul. But not a nasty North Koreans?

If that's all you're hearing you are so overly emotionally invested that it's blinding you to context.

No one is saying that citizens and corporations of non-aligned countries shouldn't submit patches which are accepted by the maintainers. They're saying that citizens and corporations of countries which are engaged in hot, cold, or proxy wars with the countries of citizenship of the maintainers shouldn't have patches accepted by said maintainers.

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