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What Is Systems Programming, Really? (2018)

willcrichton.net

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Re: What Is Systems Programming, Really? (2018)

#21

Post by randomdata »

DeathArrow wrote: post #17

For me "systems programming" is just low level programming. You do it when you need to access the hardware, when you need performance. It seems a lost art. When I learned Pascal, C and C++ during high school most of my peers were learning and using these. Until early 2000s most of the software facing end users was quite low level because there was no way around it, people needed software that was fast enough. Even if…

Yet an operating system is at a higher level, above the kernel. Traditionally, systems have been the middle ground between the low level and the high level.

But ultimately words only mean what ever you define them as in the moment, so system can mean anything you want it to, so long as that meaning is conveyed to others needing to understand how you are using the word.

Re: What Is Systems Programming, Really? (2018)

#22

Post by swinglock »

mindcrime wrote: post #15

To the extent that there is a real distinction between "Systems Programming" and "Whatever is not Systems Programming" and to the extent that this distinction matters, I tend to align with the take espoused in the Systems Programming[1] Wikipedia page: The primary distinguishing characteristic of systems programming when compared to application programming is that application programming aims to produce software whic…

Every software has a user. Other programmers are users too. In addition, all software is performance constrained, as no user has an infinitely fast computer or infinite time.

Of course it's fuzzy and unimportant, they're just words for categories we've made up, and didn't even make a very good job of it.

Even if we did make it clear which is which, what's the gain from being able to make a clear distinction? Is it any more productive than fighting over who got the best text editor?

Re: What Is Systems Programming, Really? (2018)

#23

Post by grumpyprole »

legerdemain wrote: post #2

Will makes a dubious claim to support a dubious distinction. Plenty of large, complex infrastructure is written in Python. > Dynamic programming languages are arguably still far from systems languages, > since dynamic types and idioms like “ask forgiveness, not permission” are not > conducive for good code quality. I find it amusing that, when asked to give a defining characteristic of systems programming, key figure…

> Plenty of large, complex infrastructure is written in Python.

shudders

Re: What Is Systems Programming, Really? (2018)

#24

Post by amelius »

bluetomcat wrote: post #20
DeathArrow wrote: post #17

For me "systems programming" is just low level programming. You do it when you need to access the hardware, when you need performance. It seems a lost art. When I learned Pascal, C and C++ during high school most of my peers were learning and using these. Until early 2000s most of the software facing end users was quite low level because there was no way around it, people needed software that was fast enough. Even if…

Systems programming is when you break-out from your shiny MVC API and libraries, and start reading section 2 of the Linux/BSD manual. When you start caring about process and thread affinity, memory allocation patterns, CPU cache performance, etc.

And the GPU.

This is why a "systems" programming language makes no sense. You need many languages to address all the different kinds of hardware in your system.

Re: What Is Systems Programming, Really? (2018)

#26

Post by taneq »

mindcrime wrote: post #15

To the extent that there is a real distinction between "Systems Programming" and "Whatever is not Systems Programming" and to the extent that this distinction matters, I tend to align with the take espoused in the Systems Programming[1] Wikipedia page: The primary distinguishing characteristic of systems programming when compared to application programming is that application programming aims to produce software whic…

Systems programming : application programming :: B2B :B2C

Re: What Is Systems Programming, Really? (2018)

#27

Post by mindcrime »

swinglock wrote: post #22
mindcrime wrote: post #15

To the extent that there is a real distinction between "Systems Programming" and "Whatever is not Systems Programming" and to the extent that this distinction matters, I tend to align with the take espoused in the Systems Programming[1] Wikipedia page: The primary distinguishing characteristic of systems programming when compared to application programming is that application programming aims to produce software whic…

Every software has a user. Other programmers are users too. In addition, all software is performance constrained, as no user has an infinitely fast computer or infinite time. Of course it's fuzzy and unimportant, they're just words for categories we've made up, and didn't even make a very good job of it. Even if we did make it clear which is which, what's the gain from being able to make a clear distinction? Is it an…

Even if we did make it clear which is which, what's the gain from being able to make a clear distinction?

Exactly. I mean, what will you do differently at work tomorrow if your job title is changed from "Systems Programmer" to "Application Programmer"? Approximately nothing.

Is it any more productive than fighting over who got the best text editor?

The text editor discussion is probably more productive!

Re: What Is Systems Programming, Really? (2018)

#28

Post by switch007 »

eimrine wrote: post #25

As someone who speaks English poorly but has a little bit of experience with the subject, I surprised the proper name is system s programming, not system programming. Why it is so?

I think because it sounds acceptable/nice, people use it. I don’t think anyone can say which is the “proper” name.

Same debate happens with system(s) administration/administrators. It’s subjective and subject to pedantry

Re: What Is Systems Programming, Really? (2018)

#29

Post by amelius »

namaria wrote: post #4

The expression is redundant isn't it? Only systems can be programmed. You can't program a cinder block or a cardboard box. I think this is just an early way to say 'software development' and people got caught up on their own mental images of what 'systems' are to them.

If you want to know what the word "system" truly means, think of what the word "systemic" means.
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