Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company • Hacker News Board

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#21

Post by autarch » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 11:48 AM UTC

bermanoid wrote: post #15

Does anyone here have any experience (and advice about) negotiating against intellectual property clauses? I'm particularly interested in whether fairly large companies are ever willing to give these up, or if it's just part of the price one has to pay for accepting employment. Right now I'm working as a consultant with a team that keeps trying to convince me to consider coming in-house; up until recently, moving was…

My experience has generally been that large corporations don't really have any wiggle room here. The contract is created by a legal team that is totally separate from the division hiring you.

Generally, a smaller company is more willing to negotiate these terms, since the person doing the hiring is likely to be closer to the person who came up with the contract.

I've refused to sign contracts because of draconian IP clauses. I always make sure the contract limits the scope of IP ownership to work done at the request of the employer. This is especially important for me since I've worked at home for years, so there's no clear demarcation between work/personal hours and equipment.

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#22

Post by prof_hobart » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 12:55 PM UTC

roel_v wrote: post #16

tptacek wrote: post #6

Prospective employers want your current salary so they can get a bead on what the negotiating floor is. Most prospective employers hear "$80k" and immediately assume "we can get this person for $88k". You might be worth $90k, $95k, or $110k, but once you said "$80k", you gave the prospective employer's HR team an excuse to play hardball: they know they're not going to insult you, even if their opening offer is $20k l…

I don't think the article said 'current salary', it was talking about 'how much do you want'. Those two are different - when you're the first to name a number of how much you want, you can anchor the discussion. Of course when you run into a company who feels they should pay you according to what you made in your previous job, they'll think the two are within 10% or so of each other. I think it's fair to never name h…

"but there is a common misconception that if you disclose your salary to an employer, it will limit the potential salary offered. It’s your experience that is indicative of your ability, not your current salary"

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#23

Post by Too » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 1:42 PM UTC

Drbble wrote: post #3

This article contradicts the single largest pro-employee piece of wisdom ("don't walk up to the table with your cards showing") without providing any supporting argument. What does your salary in an unrelated job have any relevance at all to another company? Any company that asks the question has shown that it is not "worth its salt" and so the "trust me" advice immediately dissolves. I told my personally retained re…

Similar thing happened to me. Recruiting agent was playing as if they were on my side all the time. They asked what my desired and walk-away salary was "to make sure my desired salary wouldn't sound stupid/outrageous to the company", also under promise of confidence. I smelled something funny and deliberately gave a lower than standard number to test them. Later the company contact quoted me back with the exact same number.

I also found out that they called other companies i had been in contact with for other jobs, without going through the agent, to get and share information about me with/from them. This was what raised my suspicion to the agency first and made me test the salary question. Didn't take the job they delegated in the end, but for other reasons.

I'm not advising against agencies, they can be useful and land you a good job but don't think for one second that they are your friend. They are there to extract as much information as possible from you. Don't tell them anything that might put you in a bad position for the job and your salary.

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#24

Post by onemoreact » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 3:26 PM UTC

Too wrote: post #23

Drbble wrote: post #3

This article contradicts the single largest pro-employee piece of wisdom ("don't walk up to the table with your cards showing") without providing any supporting argument. What does your salary in an unrelated job have any relevance at all to another company? Any company that asks the question has shown that it is not "worth its salt" and so the "trust me" advice immediately dissolves. I told my personally retained re…

Similar thing happened to me. Recruiting agent was playing as if they were on my side all the time. They asked what my desired and walk-away salary was "to make sure my desired salary wouldn't sound stupid/outrageous to the company" , also under promise of confidence. I smelled something funny and deliberately gave a lower than standard number to test them. Later the company contact quoted me back with the exact same…

The proper way to use recruiters is to quote a high salary as your minimum. If your skills set you up for say 80k-120k then it's easy for you to find an 80k job and hard to find a 120k job so quote 115k. If they call you back it's probably worth your time to listen, and if they don't you have lost nothing.

PS: Now, this can change if you have been looking for a while and really need a job, but there is little reason to start low balling yourself.

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#25

Post by rmc » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 3:27 PM UTC

bermanoid wrote: post #15

Does anyone here have any experience (and advice about) negotiating against intellectual property clauses? I'm particularly interested in whether fairly large companies are ever willing to give these up, or if it's just part of the price one has to pay for accepting employment. Right now I'm working as a consultant with a team that keeps trying to convince me to consider coming in-house; up until recently, moving was…

Doesn't hurt to ask?

A job offer is the whole packages things they give you (salary, benefit-in-kind) and things you give them/have to do (come into work every day, do what you're told in work, and any NDA/IP enforcement/non-compete). If one part of the package (non-compete) is something you don't like then you can and should ask them about changing it.

If they are accepting you working for them with no IP things in your contracter contract, then it's not impossible to imagine them accepting an employment contract with it. If they want to hire you then they might be more motivated. Likewise since you edited the contractor contract, you have already successfully raised the issue of outside work with them.

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#26

Post by rmc » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 3:31 PM UTC

tobiasSoftware wrote: post #20

bermanoid wrote: post #15

Does anyone here have any experience (and advice about) negotiating against intellectual property clauses? I'm particularly interested in whether fairly large companies are ever willing to give these up, or if it's just part of the price one has to pay for accepting employment. Right now I'm working as a consultant with a team that keeps trying to convince me to consider coming in-house; up until recently, moving was…

I really want an answer to this too. I just graduated, am nearly broke so I need my first job. However, I have several ideas for a startup that I want to implement soon, I'm at the point where I can have a working business within a couple months. The problem is that I know getting a startup to the point where you can live off of it will take much longer, thus I NEED a real job, and want the startup just to be a few h…

There is no hard and fast rule. There are loads of Real Jobs™ that don't require any sort of NDA/IP thing. It is definitly not 'standard' for all tech jobs to include that. Also, if a contract has that stuff, you are free to negotiate that. There is no philosophical difference between negotiating about salary, and negotiating about out of hours work.

There is a shortage of IT talent. Ergo you are in a strong bargaining position.

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#27

Post by rmc » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 3:33 PM UTC

Too wrote: post #23

Drbble wrote: post #3

This article contradicts the single largest pro-employee piece of wisdom ("don't walk up to the table with your cards showing") without providing any supporting argument. What does your salary in an unrelated job have any relevance at all to another company? Any company that asks the question has shown that it is not "worth its salt" and so the "trust me" advice immediately dissolves. I told my personally retained re…

Similar thing happened to me. Recruiting agent was playing as if they were on my side all the time. They asked what my desired and walk-away salary was "to make sure my desired salary wouldn't sound stupid/outrageous to the company" , also under promise of confidence. I smelled something funny and deliberately gave a lower than standard number to test them. Later the company contact quoted me back with the exact same…

They asked what my desired and walk-away salary was "to make sure my desired salary wouldn't sound stupid/outrageous to the company", also under promise of confidence.

A good way to even it out would be to reply with "Well I dunno, why don't you tell me what the company's desired salary is, and I'll tell you if it's outrageous?". After all, if the only reason they want to know is to prevent you sounding stupid, they'd tell you that, right? :P

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#28

Post by rmc » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 3:36 PM UTC

kibibyte wrote: post #14

I have seen a lot of posts and advice like this about increasing your starting salary by negotiating with your recruiter. However, I am a college student looking for an internship. How much of a negotiating position would I have? Is it even advisable for me to try negotiating, considering that I'm only a college intern?

Can you programme FizzBuzz? If so, then you could consider getting a paying job.

Unless you really, really want to work at $BIG_COMPANY, and you could only get an internship with them, or you are only looking for something for 3ish months. If you are looking for 'experience' and you have a year, get a paying job.

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#29

Post by rmc » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 3:40 PM UTC

xiaoma wrote: post #13

patio11 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

willing to risk losing the job In almost all cases, the original offer is still on the table. "Negotiating with the decisionmaker will cost me this offer, so don't negotiate" is something which is only really believed by engineers who are -- and I say this with love -- abominably incompetent at negotiation. This is regrettable, since skill at negotiation matters a whole heck of a lot more than skill with Chef or mast…

As someone who's been on the other side of the table (in multiple businesses), I really can't agree. In most cases, a business has a desire to fill a position fairly quickly, and especially in start-ups and small businesses, cost is a major concern. In larger businesses or governmental organizations, HR regulations and bureaucracy become a major factor. I've personally filtered out dozens if not hundreds of otherwise…

In most cases, a business has a desire to fill a position fairly quickly

It depends. As another data point, I've applied for jobs where the job advert was from 6 months ago. There is a shortage of IT talent, this company had been waiting 6 months. They can afford to wait a few weeks more.

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#30

Post by heliodor » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 4:42 PM UTC

Worst. Advice. Ever!

Go read some classic negotiation texts instead. If you're in the process of getting a job, you owe it to yourself to spend at least five hours reading about and grokking negotiation.

Do yourself a favor and never share your salary info with someone looking to hire you. They don't share their numbers, do they? So why put yourself at a disadvantage?