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China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

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Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#21

Post by reducesuffering »

4gotunameagain wrote: post #12
clouddrover wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peaceful reconciliation is simple: Russia gets out and stays out of Ukraine, Russia extradites those Russians who have committed war crimes, and Russia pays reparations for the rebuilding of Ukraine. Putin can start doing that today if he's serious about peace. China should demand Putin to do these things if China is serious about peace. But they're not serious, are they.

so.. you are against peaceful reconciliation, because what you describe is unrealistic. would a person that is capable of starting a war ever accept those terms ? especially since pulling back now puts them in a worse state than before having invaded, with NATO expansion, losses etc

Please bargain with the home invader that says your home is there's now otherwise you're dead. And that's final, no police after the fact. Maybe you can try to convince them you two can split it and live happily ever after inside?

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#22

Post by clouddrover »

reducesuffering wrote: post #18
clouddrover wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Russia has been somewhat effective in misleading the West into thinking that the conquest is only about Donbas and Crimea. No one thinks that.

The chief twit with 130 million followers thinks that... "Ukraine-Russia Peace: - Redo elections of annexed regions under UN supervision. Russia leaves if that is will of the people. - Crimea formally part of Russia, as it has been since 1783 (until Khrushchev’s mistake). - Water supply to Crimea assured. - Ukraine remains neutral." That's clearly: If Ukraine gives away Donbas and Crimea, Russia will leave. There see…

An attention-seeking lightweight pontificating on Twitter is no one.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#23

Post by 2devnull »

clouddrover wrote: post #9
2devnull wrote: post #6

I think this is commendable. Of course talk is cheap, but silence can be deadly. I hope that the usual people who live on a steady information diet of MSNBC, CNN and FOX news see this statement and hold western leadership accountable for making their own statements, and acting in support of, peaceful reconciliation.

Peaceful reconciliation is simple: Russia gets out and stays out of Ukraine, Russia extradites those Russians who have committed war crimes, and Russia pays reparations for the rebuilding of Ukraine. Putin can start doing that today if he's serious about peace. China should demand Putin to do these things if China is serious about peace. But they're not serious, are they.

[flagged]

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#24

Post by clouddrover »

2devnull wrote: post #23
clouddrover wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peaceful reconciliation is simple: Russia gets out and stays out of Ukraine, Russia extradites those Russians who have committed war crimes, and Russia pays reparations for the rebuilding of Ukraine. Putin can start doing that today if he's serious about peace. China should demand Putin to do these things if China is serious about peace. But they're not serious, are they.

[flagged]

Ukraine didn't seek out war. War was brought to Ukraine.

Ukrainians are defending their nation from a belligerent invader. Ukrainians are fighting and dying for the mere right to be Ukrainian. That's as existential as it gets.

You have understood nothing.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#25

Post by roundandround »

lispm wrote: post #13
4gotunameagain wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so.. you are against peaceful reconciliation, because what you describe is unrealistic. would a person that is capable of starting a war ever accept those terms ? especially since pulling back now puts them in a worse state than before having invaded, with NATO expansion, losses etc

> you are against peaceful reconciliation, because what you describe is unrealistic what you describe is unrealistic. Russia keeps killing people and handing over the Ukraine to them is no option.

> Russia keeps killing people and handing over the Ukraine to them is no option.

And who suggested that? The question is whether Russia will violate 80 years of superpower precedent by acting with integrity and admitting defeat and willingness to face externally determined consequences or if something else will happen.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#26

Post by jszymborski »

yogthos wrote: post #19
Kon5ole wrote: post #14

Mostly sympathetic statements but the problem with any statement from a nondemocratic country is that it can change after a bad lunch by the dictator in charge. The problem addressed by the statement from China is entirely caused by Russia being a dictatorship that allows a single individual to control the military might of an entire nation. Democracies have safeguards in place that complicates many radical actions,…

I'm not sure where you get this notion that China is not a democratic country. First, people who actually live in China seem to disagree with you. In fact, far more people in China think that their country is more democratic than Americans think US is. https://www.tbsnews.net/world/china-more-democratic-america-... This page explains how grassroots democracy and public participation works in China. https://news.cgtn.…

I would have never thought when I woke up this morning that someone would try to sell me "China is a democracy", but here we are I guess

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#27

Post by mindslight »

4gotunameagain wrote: post #12
clouddrover wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peaceful reconciliation is simple: Russia gets out and stays out of Ukraine, Russia extradites those Russians who have committed war crimes, and Russia pays reparations for the rebuilding of Ukraine. Putin can start doing that today if he's serious about peace. China should demand Putin to do these things if China is serious about peace. But they're not serious, are they.

so.. you are against peaceful reconciliation, because what you describe is unrealistic. would a person that is capable of starting a war ever accept those terms ? especially since pulling back now puts them in a worse state than before having invaded, with NATO expansion, losses etc

> especially since pulling back now puts them in a worse state than before having invaded, with NATO expansion, losses etc

Why would Russia not end up in a worse state after launching an ill-advised war of aggression? Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#28

Post by Kon5ole »

yogthos wrote: post #19
Kon5ole wrote: post #14

Mostly sympathetic statements but the problem with any statement from a nondemocratic country is that it can change after a bad lunch by the dictator in charge. The problem addressed by the statement from China is entirely caused by Russia being a dictatorship that allows a single individual to control the military might of an entire nation. Democracies have safeguards in place that complicates many radical actions,…

I'm not sure where you get this notion that China is not a democratic country. First, people who actually live in China seem to disagree with you. In fact, far more people in China think that their country is more democratic than Americans think US is. https://www.tbsnews.net/world/china-more-democratic-america-... This page explains how grassroots democracy and public participation works in China. https://news.cgtn.…

China was arguably a democracy of sorts before they changed their constitution to allow unlimited terms. Before that, they had two terms. Even though the next leader had to come from the same party, having a party with several million members means they actually had some form of general representation.

Having a peaceful mandatory transfer of power from any individual after a set number of years is not the only requirement but it's one of the most fundamental. China has removed that. The US for all its problems still has that, despite the troubles during the most recent election.

A democracy that has been subverted by corporate interests and is not acting in the best interests of its population still has mechanisms in place by which the population can detect and change such subversions. The forced transition of power being one of the most important.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#29

Post by yogthos »

jszymborski wrote: post #26
yogthos wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure where you get this notion that China is not a democratic country. First, people who actually live in China seem to disagree with you. In fact, far more people in China think that their country is more democratic than Americans think US is. https://www.tbsnews.net/world/china-more-democratic-america-... This page explains how grassroots democracy and public participation works in China. https://news.cgtn.…

I would have never thought when I woke up this morning that someone would try to sell me "China is a democracy", but here we are I guess

Yeah, what do people who actually live in China know about their own country. Some white dude from America who couldn't find China on a map surely knows better. Peak chauvinism here my friend.

Re: China's Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis

#30

Post by yogthos »

Kon5ole wrote: post #28
yogthos wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure where you get this notion that China is not a democratic country. First, people who actually live in China seem to disagree with you. In fact, far more people in China think that their country is more democratic than Americans think US is. https://www.tbsnews.net/world/china-more-democratic-america-... This page explains how grassroots democracy and public participation works in China. https://news.cgtn.…

China was arguably a democracy of sorts before they changed their constitution to allow unlimited terms. Before that, they had two terms. Even though the next leader had to come from the same party, having a party with several million members means they actually had some form of general representation. Having a peaceful mandatory transfer of power from any individual after a set number of years is not the only requir…

This may shock you, but plenty of western countries don't have term limits. Merkel had a longer term than Xi for example, and nobody was screaming that Germany turned into a dictatorship as I recall.

Ultimately, a democracy is a government that works in the interest of the majority and that's being held accountable to the majority. Chinese system seems to do a good job of that as evidenced by the fact that quality of life in China continues to improve. People living in China think they have a democracy because they see the government working for them. The same can't be said for many western countries.

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