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It Is Happening Again: Industrial toxicity without industrial employment

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21–30 of 41 posts

Re: It Is Happening Again: Industrial toxicity without industrial employment

#21
>> And precisely because they were nuclear accidents, Three Mile Island and Chernobyl left their surroundings contaminated for years, even decades.

Perhaps a small point, but the incident at Three Mile Island did not lead contaminate surroundings for years. Or at least, the extent is somewhat disputed.

From wiki:

According to the American Nuclear Society, using the official radioactivity emission figures, "The average radiation dose to people living within 10 miles of the plant was eight millirem (0.08 mSv), and no more than 100 millirem (1 mSv) to any single individual. Eight millirem is about equal to a chest X-ray, and 100 millirem is about a third of the average background level of radiation received by US residents in a year."

Although some epidemiological studies cast some doubt on that:

A peer-reviewed research article by Dr. Steven Wing found a significant increase in cancers between 1979 and 1985 among people who lived within ten miles of TMI.[113] In 2009 Dr. Wing stated that radiation releases during the accident were probably "thousands of times greater" than the NRC's estimates. A retrospective study of Pennsylvania Cancer Registry found an increased incidence of thyroid cancer in some counties south of TMI (although, notably, not in Dauphin County itself) and in high-risk age groups but did not draw a causal link between these incidences and the accident.[13][14] The Talbott lab at the University of Pittsburgh reported finding a few, small increased cancer risks within the TMI population.[15] A more recent study reached "findings consistent with observations from other radiation-exposed populations," raising "the possibility that radiation released from [Three Mile Island] may have altered the molecular profile of [thyroid cancer] in the population surrounding TMI", establishing a potential causal mechanism, although not definitively proving causation.[114]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Mile_Island_accident

Re: It Is Happening Again: Industrial toxicity without industrial employment

#22
post #2

Dang, can we get the title changed to "It Is Happening Again: Industrial toxicity without industrial employment". I don't think title offers much info as is.

"It is Happening Again: I'm Clicking on Clickbait" is what went through my mind as I clicked on it

"It Is Happening Again: We Are Discussing Authoritarians As If They Are To Be Tolerated" struck me around the 60% mark.

Re: It Is Happening Again: Industrial toxicity without industrial employment

#23

“More than a week after the crash, CNN discovered that some East Palestine residents had served as extras in the recent Netflix film adaptation of Don DeLillo’s White Noise—specifically while filming the novel’s “Airborne Toxic Event” sequence, in which an errant rail car spills chemicals that produce a noxious black cloud over a midwestern town.” Hadn’t heard this tidbit about the crash before, what a truly insane c…

Very good novel, but very different. Don Delillo has a very unique writing style. His novels reflect some very keen insights into contemporary life.

Re: It Is Happening Again: Industrial toxicity without industrial employment

#24
post #5

I can’t get over the pompous writing of this article. It was so distracting I had to move on.

For being a crowd that I imagine would often classify itself as intellectual, HN can be surprisingly intolerant of writing with any degree of flair or (non-technical) complexity.

Re: It Is Happening Again: Industrial toxicity without industrial employment

#25
post #5

I can’t get over the pompous writing of this article. It was so distracting I had to move on.

For being a crowd that I imagine would often classify itself as intellectual, HN can be surprisingly intolerant of writing with any degree of flair or (non-technical) complexity.

It's one thing to fling around some words for fun in a web forum. It's rather another to put up an essay on a serious topic with this kind of ornamentation. It makes it look like the author is selling something.

If I want to read a policy paper on rail safety regulation, I want it dry. Give me events, causes, remedies, suggestions, costs. I don't want to read a stump speech.

And in point of fact there aren't any remedies or reasoned argument here, it's all yelling and finger pointing. How might this have been prevented? Why did it happen in the first place (FWIW: we don't actually know yet, AFAIK). How else might we ship these compounds? Do we need to? What industries are they serving? That's the stuff I want to hear.

Re: It Is Happening Again: Industrial toxicity without industrial employment

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone needs to tell that Erik Baker that using lots of big words doesn't make you sound clever, it just makes you sound like a smartarse 15-year-old trying to impress their English teacher.

It didn't seem excessive to me. "pusillanimous" stuck out, but apart from that it seemed like fairly normal prose.

The text read like an inert tornado.

Re: It Is Happening Again: Industrial toxicity without industrial employment

#27
post #5

I can’t get over the pompous writing of this article. It was so distracting I had to move on.

it's n+1, they're a literary magazine, writing is kind of their thing.

it lasts about a paragraph. there's more effort in this thread already

Re: It Is Happening Again: Industrial toxicity without industrial employment

#28

Regulations stifle innovation. What's a few ecological disasters in the name of progress?

The residents can simply stop doing business with that particular freight company. Now that they know they operate unsafely from suffering permanent damage from chemical poisoning, they can make an informed decision on the free market.

Re: It Is Happening Again: Industrial toxicity without industrial employment

#29
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For being a crowd that I imagine would often classify itself as intellectual, HN can be surprisingly intolerant of writing with any degree of flair or (non-technical) complexity.

It's one thing to fling around some words for fun in a web forum. It's rather another to put up an essay on a serious topic with this kind of ornamentation. It makes it look like the author is selling something. If I want to read a policy paper on rail safety regulation, I want it dry. Give me events, causes, remedies, suggestions, costs. I don't want to read a stump speech. And in point of fact there aren't any reme…

Read some NTSB reports for dry reports

Or CSB videos on YT

Or some TV shows like Seconds from Disaster or that Air crash one.

or listen to industrial engineers when they do their simulations and Fault trees and HAZOP shenanigans

there are a lot of publications and books and even university courses about how to study the functional safety of systems.

However, all of these dry "remedies, suggestions, costs" only make sense when you can have the "stump speech" about what you want. You need to discuss what industries you want, and what risks do you accept. When you study a risk, you can avoid it (no go), transfer it (mostly to insurance companies), mitigate it (with these new practices and technical solutions you called for, to reduce frequency and/or impact) or accept it (all green).

The articles underlines how the current risk of derailment was known and accepted by the Department of Transportation. There was nothing more to do technologically, if the risk was accepted as it was.

If you want a remedy or suggestions, go see the government and the companies to tell them chemicals plumes aren't acceptable when they happen every few years. Technical solutions will come, if they want to continue to operate trains but more safely.

Re: It Is Happening Again: Industrial toxicity without industrial employment

#30

Regulations stifle innovation. What's a few ecological disasters in the name of progress?

Not that this brightens your day, but it's not just the evil and/or short-sighted capitalists: "Scientists working in this field might say – as indeed I have said – that the benefits of such experiments and the resulting knowledge outweigh the risks." Pride is a stronger motivator than greed. https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-argued-benefits-gain-function-1...

Fauci's argument was that pandemics happen naturally, so it would be better to get ahead of them in the lab. Was he wrong? Maybe. Or maybe Covid was totally natural and we needed GoF research to help with vaccines. Fauci also acknowledged the validity of concerns, in that same paper.

Is it bad to run a biolab next to a naturally virus -heavy environment? Probably. Is it bad to trust the Chinese Communiat Party with a biolab,given their decades long record of oppression the Chinese epoeple and suppression of the press? Probably.

Vinyl Chloride gas clouds, by contrast, never appear naturally.

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