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Only Debate The Non-Linear

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Re: Only Debate The Non-Linear

#21

Post by svnt »

l33t233372 wrote: post #4

To me it seems like the author is saying “An important decision is a nonlinear one, where a nonlinear decision is one that might have a big impacts.” So this whole post boils down to something like: “only debate decisions that might have big impacts.” I don’t really see what’s interesting about that idea.

The author stops at an intuitive leap before developing the idea into something easily put into practice.

Actually doing what the author describes is often impossible except in an intuitive way. How could you know a priori which decisions might have big impacts? On a project of any complexity you need either deep specific experience or a very accurate working model of the entire project. You aren’t likely to have either.

This has been previously covered in depth, even in software, although of course it could possibly be improved.

Painting the bikeshed is one example: http://phk.freebsd.dk/sagas/bikeshed/

Re: Only Debate The Non-Linear

#23

Post by Spivak »

GenerocUsername wrote: post #20
booleandilemma wrote: post #17

Most engineers will tell you that the transition from a junior engineer to a senior engineer, or the truly transformational work in our careers, does not come from just crushing tickets non-stop for extended periods of time. Of course it doesn't. And that's because "the transition" he refers to is an illusion at best, and a lie we tell ourselves at worst. It's all about politics and getting on your boss' good side. T…

4/5 managers from my career fit this description. I've had 2 managers who were better than this, and they were prior programmers who still understood the code but had moved up. The best managers are good coders who realize that by directing they can actually accomplish more across many areas than they could have as a individual contributed. But 4/5 are disconnected paycheck collectors who need to be told stories

I wanna push back on this.

> Good coders who realize that by directing they can actually accomplish more across many areas.

This isn't a manager, this is a director. Great to have but not the person you want directly managing teams. The people you want directly managing teams are "servant managers", "shit umbrellas" or because it's silly there's even terms for these just "non-shitty managers." Managers should be people who enable the devs not because of their coding talent but because of their non-coding talent. They organize all your work into a nice little streams so you don't have to carry the mental load, advocate for the needs of your team by translating tech speak into product management speak, dealing with all the external requests to your team (i.e. saying no), handling on-call schedules, coordinating with the release managers and support, helps you with career development, the list goes on.

A good dev manager lets you turn off brain to all annoyances and distractions not related to your technical work.

Re: Only Debate The Non-Linear

#24

Post by User23 »

Spivak wrote: post #23
GenerocUsername wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4/5 managers from my career fit this description. I've had 2 managers who were better than this, and they were prior programmers who still understood the code but had moved up. The best managers are good coders who realize that by directing they can actually accomplish more across many areas than they could have as a individual contributed. But 4/5 are disconnected paycheck collectors who need to be told stories

I wanna push back on this. > Good coders who realize that by directing they can actually accomplish more across many areas. This isn't a manager, this is a director. Great to have but not the person you want directly managing teams. The people you want directly managing teams are "servant managers", "shit umbrellas" or because it's silly there's even terms for these just "non-shitty managers." Managers should be peop…

You’re describing a good secretary.

Re: Only Debate The Non-Linear

#25

Post by User23 »

sublinear wrote: post #7

> I would rather implement a self-service e-commerce platform for a company’s merchandising team, rather than make it easier for engineers to service a ticket to build a /products/hat/:id endpoint every 6 weeks. Sounds like the author is trying to justify building new stuff without being responsible for any of it. Whatever delusions they have about the "non-linear", the big ideas are almost certainly not going to com…

> Engineers are not smarter than anyone else. Imagine that

This kind of anti-intellectualism is extremely harmful. In reality engineers generally are smarter than average and that’s a good thing if you like things like safe aviation.

Re: Only Debate The Non-Linear

#26

Post by YZF »

booleandilemma wrote: post #17

Most engineers will tell you that the transition from a junior engineer to a senior engineer, or the truly transformational work in our careers, does not come from just crushing tickets non-stop for extended periods of time. Of course it doesn't. And that's because "the transition" he refers to is an illusion at best, and a lie we tell ourselves at worst. It's all about politics and getting on your boss' good side. T…

YMMV. The transition is real. Whether you can get rewarded for it is a different question. Sure, in some organizations it doesn't matter, but in others it matters.

There's is a continuum in how well you can perform as a software developer and this is a non-linear phenomena. That said the "title" is definitely often a made up thing.

It's not like politics don't come into play. Politics are always at play. But doing an obviously poor job with great politics won't work in most organizations and you can be a good engineer and still understand the politics and advance your abilities and advance in the organization.

Re: Only Debate The Non-Linear

#27

Post by twblalock »

User23 wrote: post #24
Spivak wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wanna push back on this. > Good coders who realize that by directing they can actually accomplish more across many areas. This isn't a manager, this is a director. Great to have but not the person you want directly managing teams. The people you want directly managing teams are "servant managers", "shit umbrellas" or because it's silly there's even terms for these just "non-shitty managers." Managers should be peop…

You’re describing a good secretary.

No, that is a very good description of a competent team lead.

Re: Only Debate The Non-Linear

#29

Post by b7r6 »

booleandilemma wrote: post #17

Most engineers will tell you that the transition from a junior engineer to a senior engineer, or the truly transformational work in our careers, does not come from just crushing tickets non-stop for extended periods of time. Of course it doesn't. And that's because "the transition" he refers to is an illusion at best, and a lie we tell ourselves at worst. It's all about politics and getting on your boss' good side. T…

The situation that you describe is regrettable common in my experience, but by no means ubiquitous, and I'm optimistic actually reaching the end of its lifespan.

I've been out of big-name marquee tech for several years now, but as recently as late last decade it was in fact possible to achieve meaningful seniority as an engineering manager on the back of serious engagement with the subject matter. I at one time managed a team of roughly ~35 serious engineers and several managers in a critical path and was considered senior enough to be called an L7 because I read at least and usually commented on one or more diffs a day, and worked on and usually landed a diff or two a week.

I don't know where the meme started that managing technical work was orthogonal to understanding technical work, but CTOs like Carmack disagree (FWIW little old me does as well). In almost any other field from fabrication in a shop full of machines to a law firm, the top person is the most expert person, and I think it's a weird path-dependent aberration that software got off that proven paved path.

YMMV but this stuff is IMHO getting so complicated that I think managers will be trending more rather than less technical for the foreseeable future.

Re: Only Debate The Non-Linear

#30

Post by peter_d_sherman »

My key takeaways:

>"Only debate the non-linear. If there is a strong case to be made that a proposal will create some non-linear [positive] impact, then it is worth debating at some length. [...] As a concrete example, I would rather implement a self-service e-commerce platform for a company’s merchandising team, rather than make it easier for engineers to service a ticket to build a /products/hat/:id endpoint every 6 weeks."

Reminds me of the Joel Spolsky story about one of his employees, Noah Weiss:

"Thanks or No Thanks - A young employee came up with an idea that added a million dollars to our bottom line." (Inc. Magazine, Jan 2009)

https://www.inc.com/magazine/20090101/how-hard-could-it-be-t...

Apparently Noah debated creating a job board with Joel (Joel was originally against it) -- until he eventually got his way... and added a million dollars to Joel's company's bottom line...

Related: "Pick your battles"

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