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Sal Khan explains SOPA / PIPA

khanacademy.org

21–30 of 67 posts

Re: Sal Khan explains SOPA / PIPA

#21
post #9

A very nice video, except the particular passage referred to has the clause "designed for..., has only limited purpose or use other than, or is marketed for..." violating various laws. I don't think any of his examples would fall under any of these categories.

I find it disturbing that even though I am still against SOPA and the likes, that the opposition seems to be willfully ignoring this portion. Unless I am totally misreading it, it would be very difficult for the likes of Youtube or Facebook to be included. The language is still dangerous though, because the designed for clause seems to open things up. I can easily see BitTorrent being brought in to be "designed for"…

The problem is actually with the definition of infringing site: "The term 'U.S.-directed site' means an Internet site or portion thereof that is used to conduct business directed to residents of the United States".

By this definition, a Youtube channel of people posting rickroll mashups and served, say, under a .fr domain, without paying Rick Astley, would make Youtube an infringing site as a whole. A Google group dedicated to memes based on captions of The Hurt Locker and served under the .za domain would make Google an infringing site as a whole. A subreddit dedicated to... you get the idea.

Re: Sal Khan explains SOPA / PIPA

#22

A very nice video, except the particular passage referred to has the clause "designed for..., has only limited purpose or use other than, or is marketed for..." violating various laws. I don't think any of his examples would fall under any of these categories.

The "in a manner" that you omitted is crucial here. The purpose of the site doesn't have to be for doing the illegal things. The purpose of the site just has to be something that happens "in a manner" that enables or facilitates the illegal things.

So YouTube - primary purpose is uploading videos, not illegal. But YouTube doing that in the "manner" of allowing anonymous internet users to upload anything they want - facilitates the illegal things.

So I disagree with you based on those few words. Even if you think your point stands, I'd posit the language is so dangerously ambiguous that it should be a problem in itself that ensures it never makes it into law.

Re: Sal Khan explains SOPA / PIPA

#23
post #18
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am convinced that Sal Khan's contribution to education is so significant his work will be used in classrooms generations from now... though perhaps in the form of some kind of technological derivative. So congrats! You just had lunch with the historical equivalent of Einstein.

The guy really deserves some kind of recognition, but I don't think there's a Nobel or Pulitzer for education (telling).

I think that he's got some great recognition. The Nobel and Pulitzer aren't the only way to do that.

Re: Sal Khan explains SOPA / PIPA

#24

A very nice video, except the particular passage referred to has the clause "designed for..., has only limited purpose or use other than, or is marketed for..." violating various laws. I don't think any of his examples would fall under any of these categories.

I'm not a lawyer, but it certainly sounds like his examples fit. Here's the text: [A site is illegal if] the U.S.-directed site is primarily designed or operated for the purpose of, has only limited purpose or use other than, or is marketed by its operator or another acting in concert with that operator for use in, offering goods or services in a manner that engages in, enables, or facilitates [various illegal stuff]…

Your second left parenthesis belongs one line higher. A more clear way to read it is to write out four copies of it, and then in the first copy delete or clauses 2, 3, and 4. In the second copy delete or clauses 1, 3, and 4, and so on. That gives a separate complete sentence for each of the four ways you can run afoul of that section:

    A site is illegal if] the U.S.-directed site is primarily
    designed for use in offering goods or services in a manner
    that engages in, enables, or facilitates...

    A site is illegal if] the U.S.-directed site is operated for
    the purpose of offering goods or services in a manner that
    engages in, enables, or facilitates...

    A site is illegal if] the U.S.-directed site has only
    limited purpose or use other than offering goods or services
    in a manner that engages in, enables, or facilitates...

    A site is illegal if] the U.S.-directed site is marketed by
    its operator or another acting in concert with that operator
    for use in offering goods or services in a manner that
    engages in, enables, or facilitates...
YouTube fails to fall under the first because it is not primarily designed to engage in, enable, or facilitate infringing. It fails to fall under the second because it is not operated for those purposes. It fails to fall under the third because although it does get used for the prohibit activities, it has substantial legitimate use. It fails to fall under the fourth because Google does not market it as an infringing tool--indeed, they discourage infringement.

The section that YouTube (and Reddit, and most other legitimate sites with user content) are in danger of running afoul of is the section that says a US-directed site is a site dedicated to the theft of US property if it:

    is taking, or has taken, deliberate actions to avoid confirming a
    high probability of the use of the U.S.-directed site to carry out
    acts that constitute a violation of section 501 or 1201 of title 17,
    United States Code
Some think this will requires the sites to put a lot of effort into actively monitoring user generated content and taking down things that might be illegal, as opposed to current law where they have only have to deal with things specifically brought to their notice via a DMCA notification. The section is sufficiently unclear that that is a reasonable reading of it.

Re: Sal Khan explains SOPA / PIPA

#25
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a lawyer, but it certainly sounds like his examples fit. Here's the text: [A site is illegal if] the U.S.-directed site is primarily designed or operated for the purpose of, has only limited purpose or use other than, or is marketed by its operator or another acting in concert with that operator for use in, offering goods or services in a manner that engages in, enables, or facilitates [various illegal stuff]…

Your second left parenthesis belongs one line higher. A more clear way to read it is to write out four copies of it, and then in the first copy delete or clauses 2, 3, and 4. In the second copy delete or clauses 1, 3, and 4, and so on. That gives a separate complete sentence for each of the four ways you can run afoul of that section: A site is illegal if] the U.S.-directed site is primarily designed for use in offer…

> YouTube fails to fall under the first because it is not primarily designed to engage in, enable, or facilitate infringing

Why does everyone keep leaving out the crucial "in a manner" words? Read it carefully with emphasis on those words:

    A site is illegal if] the U.S.-directed site is primarily
    designed for use in offering goods or services 
    IN A MANNER that engages in, enables, or facilitates...
It doesn't matter what the site is primarily designed to do, if it executes that purpose in a manner that facilitates bad things then it falls under the definition.

Re: Sal Khan explains SOPA / PIPA

#26
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guy really deserves some kind of recognition, but I don't think there's a Nobel or Pulitzer for education (telling).

I think that he's got some great recognition. The Nobel and Pulitzer aren't the only way to do that.

yes he has, but probably deserves more.

Re: Sal Khan explains SOPA / PIPA

#27
post #19
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It's unpleasant to see him simply ignore the limiting language. He focuses over half the video on the "enables, or facilitates" clause, spreading the false impression that the provision says _any_ site that "enables or facilitates" could be taken down under SOPA. I am a lawyer, but it doesn't (or shouldn't) take a lawyer to see that the provision has fairly strong requirements other than just "enabling" or "…

He is saying that there are a lot of sites that offer services which could enable or facilitate pirating, because the terms 'enable' and 'facilitate' are not particularly limited in scope. It seems clear to me.

That are "primarily designed or operated" for pirating, and have "only limited purpose or use other than" pirating? What are some examples of such sites?

Re: Sal Khan explains SOPA / PIPA

#28
We need S.O.P.A:

Stop Outrageous Political Assholes.

Did anyone here see the letter from the CEO of the MPAA (who happens to also be a senator) chriss dodd today, which said that this SOPA blackouts are a gimmick and that we are corporate pawns for blacking out in protest?

Is it enraging to anyone else that he is allowed to be the CEO of the MPAA AND a senator at the same time where he can both write and benefit from legislation in his interests?

Re: Sal Khan explains SOPA / PIPA

#29
post #25
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your second left parenthesis belongs one line higher. A more clear way to read it is to write out four copies of it, and then in the first copy delete or clauses 2, 3, and 4. In the second copy delete or clauses 1, 3, and 4, and so on. That gives a separate complete sentence for each of the four ways you can run afoul of that section: A site is illegal if] the U.S.-directed site is primarily designed for use in offer…

> YouTube fails to fall under the first because it is not primarily designed to engage in, enable, or facilitate infringing Why does everyone keep leaving out the crucial "in a manner" words? Read it carefully with emphasis on those words: A site is illegal if] the U.S.-directed site is primarily designed for use in offering goods or services IN A MANNER that engages in, enables, or facilitates... It doesn't matter w…

"In a manner that" modifies "offering goods or services". The structure of this is:

    The site is illegal if it is primarily designed for use in X
where X is "offering goods or services in a manner that engages in, enables, or facilitates...".

Re: Sal Khan explains SOPA / PIPA

#30
post #19
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It's unpleasant to see him simply ignore the limiting language. He focuses over half the video on the "enables, or facilitates" clause, spreading the false impression that the provision says _any_ site that "enables or facilitates" could be taken down under SOPA. I am a lawyer, but it doesn't (or shouldn't) take a lawyer to see that the provision has fairly strong requirements other than just "enabling" or "…

He is saying that there are a lot of sites that offer services which could enable or facilitate pirating, because the terms 'enable' and 'facilitate' are not particularly limited in scope. It seems clear to me.

What do you mean by "not particularly limited" in scope? It seems to me the intent of the provision is that more is required to run afoul of the provision, e.g., that a site also be "designed or operated primarily for the purpose" of enabling or facilitating illegal activity.

I give you that the provision is ambiguous. If so, then that is the problem. Say "The provision is ambiguous." Don't say that it clearly allows third parties to shut down sites like Youtube or Khan Academy. Whether it does or not depends on which way you resolve the ambiguity. (I don't think anyone really believes the current ambiguity would be resolved in court as you or Sal Khan say it must be. The problem is that there is a small risk it could be interpreted that way, which is too much risk to take with something so important.)

Also, I assume SOPA-advocates would be willing to make this provision more clear, to remove the ambiguity. What is your response if the SOPA-advocates amend the language to unambiguously limit the language to avoid the criticism that "it allows shutdown of _any_ site that merely enables or facilitates", so it clearly also requires that the site have been designed with the purpose of aiding that illegal activity? What is your criticism then? Is SOPA okay then?

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