Earlier quoted context omitted.
Err I didn’t say that during the interviews. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with interview processes for engineering roles in tech companies, but you absolutely do not even talk about your experience in most rounds, let alone the things you think I said. Mostly it goes like this: 5 mins join the interview and the logistics setup, 5 mins the interviewer and the interviewee give a brief introduction, just polite small…
> I’m not sure if you’re familiar with interview processes for engineering roles in tech companies I’m not the person your replying to. But… I’ve hired dozens of engineers and manage the hiring at a tech company. Your description of the interview process is no where near the process I take when hiring engineers, and also isn’t what I hear candidates tell me about processes they’ve been through with other companies.
A Limited Interest Article on Employer Value Prop and Hiring
21–30 of 30 posts
Re: A Limited Interest Article on Employer Value Prop and Hiring
#22The "False Negative" problem was one I made a dent in at a former employer. I was accidentally thrown into interviewing someone for a position on a development team that I wasn't a part of. After a spectacular interview, I was invited to participate in a few others and participate in selection.
The selection meeting was one of the most difficult arguments I've ever won. There were 5 of us; all had dismissed the only candidate I liked, most were in favor of a candidate that was seriously over-stating his skill set. The other candidates I had no opinion on[0].
They'd dismissed the first guy because he had not had a CS degree and were grumbling that HR had not filtered that candidate out[1]. They were sitting in the room with two people who didn't have degrees and reported to a Director who didn't have one!
I remember the "no-CS" guy really well as it had been the first interview I'd ever given. I was given no preparation, no notes, no resume, no "how to give an interview" pep talk -- I'd met the guy in the lobby where he was waiting to be let in the door ... I had taken apart the Kiosk used to do that, so I had to find the person he was looking for, which resulted in discovering that the main technical person he was to interview with was out sick and they needed to reschedule, "unless you want to do it." It sounded like fun. I'd read a lot on the topic and had been on the other side of the table several times, so I know what I liked, what I wished had been focused on and what I thought would be useful.
It turned out he had a Github repo with no less than 30 projects, a few with a handful of stars. In my head, I'm thinking "just for laughs", I asked for his "ugliest" but it turned out to be a perfect way to go. We used it as a source to brainstorm refactoring and he didn't have to claim that the code he was showing me was "his best work" and be judged for every little problem.
He was interviewing for conferencing, so mostly C/C++[2], and this guy -- on opening the first source file -- threw out tens of changes that were all appropriate. He could argue pros/cons for each approach, he even changed his mind a few times as his thinking evolved and then managed to explain how he'd redesign the entire thing if he had ever intended to "do it right." I don't even remember what it did.
At the end of our "selection meeting", I think I said something like "I don't care if you hire any of these other people but if you don't hire this guy, you're making a mistake -- he's a better developer than I am[3] (or any other developer we have on staff)."
They hired him. Within 3 months he was promoted and was the lead developer for most of the important things in conferencing[4].
[0] There was nothing particularly wrong with them or great with them and any would have been a good hire if we had that many positions open. The only problem I had was that they had no examples of anything they had written in the past to show me so I couldn't adequately judge their abilities.
[1] Never mind that the job ad said "4-year degree or equivalent experience" which this gentleman had more than enough of.
[2] I got really lucky. I hadn't touched the language in probably ten years prior to that year where I was put on a project that, unexpectedly, required me to deeply "brush up". It turned out the person who was interviewing him was a Java developer with no C/C++ background and was not looking forward to handling the technical interview for the position.
[3] I specifically called myself out because two of the people in that room had more respect for my abilities than anyone could ever deserve and thought most of the developers on "in the development org" were terrible. I avoid confrontation (more than I should) but it plays in my favor when I do complain/advocate/go to bat for something -- people tend to listen.
[4] There were people considered "owners" of an app, usually at least two, who signed off on anything going in and generally fleshed out the major design elements for those apps -- sometimes they were the only developer, too, but that team was much larger/more disciplined. I think they promoted him to Director over that org but he left shortly thereafter due to a desire to remain on the tech side of things.
Re: A Limited Interest Article on Employer Value Prop and Hiring
#23False negative problem is so ridiculous. I work for a faang, I’ve worked at all kinds of “prestigious” companies, I have worked at all kinds of companies, I get paid more than most people will ever do in their lifetime, and most importantly I know my stuff. Yet there are companies out there rejecting me for job descriptions which are only 50% of my skill set because I couldn’t code this obscure hard algorithms proble…
> Yet there are companies out there rejecting me for job descriptions which are only 50% of my skill set because I couldn’t code this obscure hard algorithms problem in 45 mins.
Ohhhh, screw that.Maybe I've just been lucky in my career, but outside of the early days I have only had one interview that involved a white-board or some form of timed test. I didn't express this to my interviewers, but I felt like part of a circus -- hey, let's see the candidate do "code tricks." And they were dumb exercises, they asked me to sort an array of numbers using a "bubble sort." Bubble sort. My brain went right to "wait, this isn't an actual example of something I'm going to be expected to do, is it?" It was a simple web back-end in C#/Razor. And you've given me a pen and paper. Granted, I thought back to my High School Pascal I class and "i" and "j"'d my way through OCD sorting.
It's "programming tricks" because we write software using a set of tools day-to-day in order to be productive/effective. If I can write software without those tools, cool, but will I be better with them and will I ever work without them in the real world? No. So it's the old "hit the apple off that person's head using this bow/arrow", except "do it blind-folded" (oooh, aaah).
In my younger days, I hated writing code with someone looking over my shoulder and my abilities to write good code would decrease dramatically if I felt like I was being judged with every keystroke.
Re: A Limited Interest Article on Employer Value Prop and Hiring
#24What a great read -- I think this individual managed to summarize a mess of things I've been thinking for a while. The "False Negative" problem was one I made a dent in at a former employer. I was accidentally thrown into interviewing someone for a position on a development team that I wasn't a part of. After a spectacular interview, I was invited to participate in a few others and participate in selection. The selec…
Resume Profile Interview First Date(s) Hire Get Married ?!?
We don't get married after a first date or even after X hours of dates. In your story above, you performed tasks that most closely resemble the daily work and that gave you insight.
I've been on interviews that ask me to implement red/black trees and their only data store is a RDBMS. We only want the best people but there is no investment put into it. Either it stays a crap shoot or we actually have to invest time into it (or outsource it to someone who does). I'd personally rather have a Bar type association that has a fairly standardized certification process and then we can interview for culture fit and personality instead of esoteric algorithm questions that are irrelevant.
Re: A Limited Interest Article on Employer Value Prop and Hiring
#25Re: A Limited Interest Article on Employer Value Prop and Hiring
#26False negative problem is so ridiculous. I work for a faang, I’ve worked at all kinds of “prestigious” companies, I have worked at all kinds of companies, I get paid more than most people will ever do in their lifetime, and most importantly I know my stuff. Yet there are companies out there rejecting me for job descriptions which are only 50% of my skill set because I couldn’t code this obscure hard algorithms proble…
The job of the Mensa logic brogrammer guess-what-I'm-thinking trivial pursuits gatekeeping is to rationalize rejecting candidates you don't like.
Successful sales people have the right mindset:
Impervious to rejection, convinced the next person will mosdef say "Yes!"
Re: A Limited Interest Article on Employer Value Prop and Hiring
#27Re: A Limited Interest Article on Employer Value Prop and Hiring
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
Right but I’m not talking about rejections when you’ve had extended conversations, I’m talking about phone screens, which often have nothing to do with the actual job.
> Yet there are companies out there rejecting me... because I couldn’t code this obscure hard algorithms problem in 45 mins. > I’m talking about phone screens You have phone screens asking you to solve algorithm problems? > I work for a faang, I’ve worked at all kinds of “prestigious” companies, I have worked at all kinds of companies, I get paid more than most people will ever do in their lifetime, and most importan…
If you're applying for a sales job, you need to sound like that.
Re: A Limited Interest Article on Employer Value Prop and Hiring
#29Earlier quoted context omitted.
Err I didn’t say that during the interviews. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with interview processes for engineering roles in tech companies, but you absolutely do not even talk about your experience in most rounds, let alone the things you think I said. Mostly it goes like this: 5 mins join the interview and the logistics setup, 5 mins the interviewer and the interviewee give a brief introduction, just polite small…
> I’m not sure if you’re familiar with interview processes for engineering roles in tech companies I’m not the person your replying to. But… I’ve hired dozens of engineers and manage the hiring at a tech company. Your description of the interview process is no where near the process I take when hiring engineers, and also isn’t what I hear candidates tell me about processes they’ve been through with other companies.
I am familiar with tech interviews on both sides of the desk, and Darth avocado's 'splainer does not align with my experience either.