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Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

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Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#21

Post by dcx »

No, the counterculture is actually thriving. But many people just don't understand it yet, because of how, well, counter it is to their ideas about culture: its roots are now in conservatism. It currently seems to be cool and edgy amongst the kids to be alt right in pretty much exactly the same way that it was cool and edgy to be very liberal in the 60s.

I'm not saying I agree with or subscribe to the tenets of conservatism (I don't). But it's a natural process for the pendulum to swing as society advances. Liberal counterculture "won" and went completely mainstream. Which is great! Gay marriage is legal, we care about sustainability, and so on. But every system has gaps and blind spots, and movements which oppose the incumbent mainstream are, by definition, not liberal counterculture.

Some touchpoints - President Obama's failure to penalize banks in the Great Recession. One percenters and the new cathedral. Joe Rogan. The intellectual dark web (Jordan Peterson et al). The red pill. The alt right.

I feel many of the above are often stupid, but in the same way that there were a lot of stupid 60s counterculture movements. It doesn't invalidate the fact that valid ideas exist within both. Also, they aren't using your signaling channels. For example, music doesn't seem to be a relevant cultural rallying point any more.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#22

Post by roenxi »

This author must have missed the 2017-2021 presidential term in the US. There are some very strong differences of opinion out there, and they have a significant impact on the nature and direction of creative work. There is without doubt a strong counter-cultural push brewing up from the world of podcasts too which will probably herald a golden age of intelligent mass political debate (clearing a truly low historical bar).

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#23

Post by cfltlayoffs »

mellosouls wrote: post #16

I see the counter culture over the last few years as the less obnoxious elements of the alt-right/conservative and centrist/"classic liberal" in their opposition to the overreach and oppression by the "liberal"/left especially in their domination of big tech and classic media. However, as the recognition of that unpleasant latter tendency has become mainstream and everybody and her grandma now knows what "woke" means…

What are the great creative works you identify with the alt-right? I know lots of great leftist artists, musicians, etc. but I don't see alt-righters making a lot of daring indie cinema for instance.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#25

Post by magic_hamster »

bmj wrote: post #15
magic_hamster wrote: post #10

I think there never was stronger counterculture than today - but the platforms for this changed. A few decades ago an avant-garde film or student project could make ripples in the film industry and gain a cult following. However, I think that anyone under 20 (possibly under 30) sees cinema as far less important than the previous generation. YouTube (and TikTok) stars became bigger than movie stars, and more young peo…

I think there never was stronger counterculture than today I disagree. Can you expand on your claim? YouTube and TikTok are not countercultural, even if some users are using those platforms for genuine countercultural creative acts. By definition, a social media "influencer" with millions of followers is not countercultural.

YouTube and TikTok are not counterculture but they are the platforms where counterculture happens.

> a social media "influencer" with millions of followers is not countercultural.

A social media "influencer" could be more important to a younger audience than other mediums, meaning this is the "culture" they will try to counter.

Edit: narrowed it down a little.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#26

Post by Towaway69 »

Perhaps we have far too many people producing very diverse counterculture however our brains are too small to absorb it all. We become numb and overwhelmed by trying to take it all in.

This leaves us in a state of utter confusion about what is important, what isn't and what it all means.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#27

Post by mellosouls »

cfltlayoffs wrote: post #23
mellosouls wrote: post #16

I see the counter culture over the last few years as the less obnoxious elements of the alt-right/conservative and centrist/"classic liberal" in their opposition to the overreach and oppression by the "liberal"/left especially in their domination of big tech and classic media. However, as the recognition of that unpleasant latter tendency has become mainstream and everybody and her grandma now knows what "woke" means…

What are the great creative works you identify with the alt-right? I know lots of great leftist artists, musicians, etc. but I don't see alt-righters making a lot of daring indie cinema for instance.

I'm strictly considering the definition as "an alternative to dominant [as opposed to popular] opinion and social mores".

I'd probably agree the bulk of indier-than-thou creations are produced by people on the left (not all of whom demand we also bow to their political interpretation of the world); some of the work excellent, most of it perhaps not.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#28

Post by badcppdev »

This comment thread is fascinating as there are so many people who are obviously in totally different bubbles even though they are all commenting on the same HN item.

Please supply some context! You (We) all live in bubbles and you have to be clear about where you are coming from before you spout off your observations and thoughts.

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#29

Post by ploum »

hbossy wrote: post #24

So the author realized he is consuming only the mainstream culture and concluded anything other is too hard to notice, therefore not a counterculture?

Exactly my reaction. The article made me think of the Gemini/Gopher/Smolnet space I like so much as a counter-culture.

But then it defines "counter-culture" has having a significant impact. This is a bit of a paradox to me: either you are mainstrean, either you are counter-culture. You can’t be both at the same time. Only history made us realize that a counter-culture movement had a strong impact when it became… mainstream! (and is not counter-culture anymore)

Yet, on the individual level, it would be nice if people could realize: "hey, I’m mainly consuming mainstream stuff. I should try to diversify."

Re: Do we live in a society without a counterculture?

#30

Post by anovikov »

adamcharnock wrote: post #20

I'm pretty sure I've been existing in a number of counter-cultures for the last decade or two. These have been either linked to my identity or physical location, I couldn't have properly experienced them through consuming media on the subject. Certainly all required an active choice and/or lifestyle change on my part. Maybe people mean something else by counter-culture, but here are examples from my life: - Freelanci…

Bingo! As soon as you get to define counterculture as something else but "a kind of bullshit you read on the Internet which is different from what normies read", you realise that there is plenty of it.
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